End of an Age

[Tim]

Don't panic! This is nothing about GoS going away or anything like that. ;D Basically, I want your guys input on something I've been trying to figure out for a while. Won't be in V8, but maybe if we get a good plan it could go in V9.

So here's the biggest problem I see keeping the player base down. Most of you who have been around for a few versions are familiar with this: A new version launches. Everyone's excited and plays a bunch. Battles over towns happen. Players level up there characters. Lots of active people. About a month or two goes by and things start to trail off. Town control is pretty set. Top players are getting spread out from the pack. Nothing left to work for really other than make your character even stronger. Less and less players are active. Not much going on. Finally it gets down to only the most hardcore players, and half of them only log on to ask when the new version comes out.

Since new versions are now pushing 5-6 months apart, that leaves a month or 2 of near complete inactivity between the launch of a version and the opening of the next versions test site, which some people don't like to play. People find other things to do in this time, and every version we lose a few players. We gain a few new ones too, but at best they make up for the ones that are lost.

My point is one that has been brought up before: there needs to be some sort of victory/ending condition for the game. The problem is: what?

So here's my idea. Right now there are basically 2 levels of the game: the individual level and the clan level. On the individual level, players beef up there character, trying to get on top 10 lists for various things. On the clan level, players support their clans and try to take over towns just make their clan superior to others in general. Was trying to think of an ending condition on the clan level, but nothing seemed to fit. So I think we need to bring back a 3rd level to the game: war between the Light and the Shadow.

Right now, darkfriend is just a class. Doesn't really do anything else. It should mean something more again. They should be different from non-darkfriends, with each side having different goals. Darkfriends should try to hinder humanity, while non-darkfriends should try to protect it. Darkfriends spread chaos, while non-darkfriends spread order. Perhaps Darkfriends can do things that slow down town development or business, while non-darkfriends can try to speed it up.

Ultimately, my plan is that every version would end with a Last Battle, occuring 2-3 months after the version starts. Basically it will be a War that all players are involved in, lasting multiple days. Depending on the actions of players throughout the age, both sides will be given bonuses, but it the Last Battle will be the deciding factor (unless one side has completely dominated the other...). After the Battle is over, either the Light or the Shadow will be declared victor. The top player for both the Light and the Shadow will be declared the Champion of their side. The Heroes page would lock in place as it is.

After that players can keep playing if they want, raising their own level or boosting their clan, but that's about it for that version. If I'm not ready for the test site to open, I could start things over again with no changes to the game. Maybe a short version. Maybe do a little version with no battle limit or a bunch more battles. Something to keep things interesting.

So while I like the idea, there's a couple things I'd like your input on. First off, what do you think of the idea in general? Secondly, the idea needs fleshed out more. What should make darkfriends different from non-darkfriends? How can players contribute to the war between Light and Shadow before the Last Battle, and what effects should it have on the game? What prizes should should the Champions of each side get? How does a player choose between darkfriend or non-darkfriend? Can they switch back and forth? Any neutral characters?

Lots of questions need answering still, so the more input the better!

[Edvar al'Given]

I like it! What if no one could see who was a darkfriend except the DO? (the Creator too, of course lol, he kinda can't b stopped from seeing lol). Also, what if after lv 40 or 50 players could get special quests geared toward their alignment worth more than the normal exp? And what if the champion of each side were to get a special reward. Maybe an extra skill point or even a special skill! The Dragon or Nae'blis! Haha, this news excited me a bit

[alSeen]

maybe the champions get a special item? or maybe they get an equipment set named after them, like what weapons they used (like sword and shield, or bow and spear) and armor and add stats with what they used a lot, but make it still balanced with the best armor or best weapons. and let the champions get to name the set lol cuz that way we could be stylin' in the best lol

[almordre]

OK, first random thought just after reading this, but trying to make it make sense:

Edvar's right on at least two points - DFs need to be secret, at least until the very highest levels are reached, and I do think the current questing system could be utilized to create special challenges for the DFs to reach their goals.

WoT gives a pretty well-established hierarchy for DFs, and that could be turned into a means for leveling/increasing influence for DFs. Think of this as fleshing out the ladder for attaining new skill classes currently: Early on, DFs must meet certain conditions/perform certain tasks/quests that equate to ill-spirited mischief, until a certain point (lvl25?) where they attract the attention of other DFs, maybe becoming part of a small group, like the Black Ajah's "hearts." Working in tandem, they could continue the same sort of quests/actions/whatever, until they attract the attention of a Forsaken (lvl50?) and become stronger through their favor. Next stage (lvl75) involves some sort of questing - the trip to Shayol Ghul to swear oaths, to become an official Forsaken (channelers) or Dreadlords (non-channelers).
(Where do Dreadlords fit in the DO's hierarchy, anyway? Never have sorted them out in my head?!?)


Reading back over this, it sounds like a map for a completely separate skill tree - a viable route, but what would happen if instead of a separate tree, being a progressing DF allowed the player to add, say, one DF-specific active skill to whatever new class they added at those levels (using gaps bigger than 20lvls intentionally - seems like I posted an idea on that a while back). This would allow the players to still pursue their favorite skill/weapon builds, but have the option to enhance them with bits of DF nastiness. While the DF skills would naturally be a small amount "stronger" than the regular skills, the DFs would still have only their normal allotment of skill points to work with, keeping the field fairly level. Since the DF skills would be more or less shoehorned into regular classes/skills, the public class icons wouldn't need to change in any way, so ultimately, other than possibly spotting huge taint effects or other unnatural tells in battles, it would be seriously difficult to spot DFs.

I think there's other pieces of how this could work floating around in my head, but I'm gonna shut up for now and see if anyone thinks there's merit to the idea before I give myself an aneurysm trying to sort them out into coherent words...

[almordre]

...and maybe try to come up with something similarly far-fetched-but-hopefully-doable for the good guys.


Although - seems like the good guys are always at a disadvantage in the books, and there's no Gandalf/Fizban randomly appearing with wisdom or weapons, so maybe just the "hero's journey" of building our chars into the bad-assedest they can be should be the path for the Light...


ADD:

Maybe the Light's advantage could be, at the highest levels - but not before - some special way to communicate with each other and coordinate things amongst themselves. Seems like our Randland favorites collectively shot themselves in the foot more than a few times due to lack of communication...

[almordre]

oh, and moving from that wild tangent, back to the original subject you posed - what about something as simple as DF activity subtracting from lead clan's town pts? Not sure that in itself would be enough, but could that work as part of gameplay?

[almordre]

Personally, I think I'd shy away from neutral characters (I think Fain is the only one of those running around). I think maybe you should have to chose Light or DF at first class upgrade (lvl20-25) - do you continue on the good path, or does the temptation of more power seduce you (in the case of the DF skills I pitched above)?

I think switching sides could be problematic. DFs don't usually live long if they try to switch - I think ?Ingtar is the only example of a DF turning back to the Light. I think, if a case could be made to allow switches at all, then it should be with the conditions that you can only switch once, and once a switch is made, your allegiance is no longer kept secret (anyone you worked with prior would know you turned, and be looking for you, so the secret's kind of out).

[almordre]

oh - another point to Edvar - the champions for each side should definitely earn the titles of Dragon and Nae'blis. The Dragon is born as a different person in each age, and the Dark One chooses his second on his whims, so it makes perfect sense that the titles could go to whoever accomplishes the most for each side's goals...



actually....

Maybe that could turn into something for the Light: two ideas growing here - maybe near the Last Battle, a top handful of Light chars earn "Hero of the Horn" status, complete with a name addition like "Silverbow" or "Hawkwing" and a stat boost unique to each (Silverbow would be a big accuracy boost).

OR: maybe stick with the idea of "hero's journey" for most of the game, with no special benefits through lower levels for Light chars, but then at lvl75 or so (on par with Forsaken lvl mentioned above), Light chars achieve "Hero of the Horn" status, as a openly-available (no limit to number of chars) class, with a large stat bonus based on the player's weapon/class choices. Or maybe they could choose a high-powered boost to a specific stat.

[almordre]

OK, you're all thinking the same thing I'm thinking right now - MAKE IT STOP.

Last one for tonight, I promise:

Could the search for/breaking of the Bore seals be incorporated into the game somehow as part of the progression or as conditions for the Last Battle to commence, or something along that line? Maybe control of the seals could become part of the interplay between Light and Darkfriends?

Maybe the finding/creation of specific weapons/items could be part of the progression of the game? For the Light - Rand's lucky find of the really old sword (is it Lews Therin's - I forget the details), Perrin's forging of the hammer, Mat's foxhead medallion, etc?

Possibly - the DF's goal is to find the seals, the Light's to find/create the special weapons. Either side achieving their ultimate goal initiates the Last Battle. If one side is unprepared (hasn't reached their goal), then they are at a disadvantage in the Battle - the further from the goal, the more so. If one side manages to obtain an item necessary to the other side, then a larger (but not Last) battle can occur to try to regain the item. Conditions would have to be established to insure that the other side could find out that one of their items is being held and by who, but it would have to be relatively difficult. Possibly completing the quest for the item, and receiving a message that it's already gone. Maybe a vague clue in the message could be "taken by an archer" - so that the quester has some idea where to look, but nothing specific enough to make it easy. Stolen items like this could be stored by a person, or stashed in a town (like the Horn and Fain's Dagger were stored in Tar Valon) and a battle for the town - but only one initiated specifically with the intent of reclaiming a goal item - could allow a way to recover the item (I can see a case for letting a random town takeover net the winning clan any goal item stored there - that might make things really interesting, or ridiculously chaotic - hard to say)...

OK, this is getting out there into serious work to implement, so I'm gonna try to quit thinking now. G'night...


GAH - one more alternative/piece to consider for the above idea: maybe achieving the goals could be based on a global points system, rather than a quest/find method. Key factor would be that the points earned would have to be balanced against how many chars are on the sides. The goals should have equal point levels to acquire, but the points earned per player-action would have to be adjusted based on the number of players on the same side. If there were 100 Light players and only 20 Shadow, then the DFs would earn more points per whatever action, while the Light would count on its greater numbers, to be active. Activity would be a key, too - maybe set criteria for both login frequency and XP gain so that inactive chars aren't figured into the math, and so that dummy chars couldn't be created and parked on the other side to dilute their points earnings.

[alSeen]

i vote for what almordre said too lol

[King Richard]

Wow, my brain hurts already. I want to get a couple ideas out there before Kev takes them all. ;D

So, I agree that the DFs should be secret, right up to the point that the last battle is declared. I'm still trying to think of how this might work, but here's the gist of it. As you start to play, occasionally, you have some choices pop up. 'A cat walks in front of you. Do you want to kick it, or step over?' Or, 'A farmer trips and rips his pants. Laugh, look away, kick him, help him up, take his money that he droped, or buy him some new pants?' For various amounts of Light/Dark points. Then, based on what you chose, at a certain level, (25 again?) You can see what your good points versus bad points would be, and either chose to be Light or Dark right there, or you can wait, and keep choosing for random Light/Dark points, till another opportunity to pick a side. And so on every 5 levels or so for those who don't like making decisions.

When you pick a side, you get more choices, but they become harder, and more costly. Good guy choices something like this: 'A small band of trollocs raid a village nearby. Spend 5 turns to hunt them down, and get 5 Light points, Send condolences but do nothing for -2 LPs, Send 1g to help rebuild the town for 3 light points, or do all three to receive 10 LPs.

Bad guy choices more along the lines of helping the trollocs burn the villages for similar rewards. Only, instead of 'sending' gold, they can make it from pillaging. An added perk for DFs.

Then, after a certain length of time, 1 or 2 months or so, a Bore Seal is found in a city, and people can go search for it. Like a tournament, you sign up and it is randomly 'found' by a person, and they get to decide to break it, or hide it. Then every few days, they either have to risk it being seen again and risk losing it, move it and risk breaking it, or just break it to start the last battle. With each seal that breaks, the DFs get stronger, and businesses get weaker and so forth, until all the seals are broken and the last battle starts, and until one side wins, there aren't any clans, or towns, but only Light and Dark.

When the last battle starts, the people with the most Light/Dark points, become the Dragon and Nae'blis. And somehow, the war is fought, and one side wins, then either the clans, and towns return to normal, and it's just a happy time, or if the shadow wins, the world is all blight, and clans stay abolished and it just becomes a free for all or something.

Anyway, that's all I've got for now, will keep thinking though.

[Crom Cruach]

Wow, this idea did sparkle people's imagination ;D

What if the DF net was created by the characters themselves? This is an unique chance to revitalise the in-game RP!!

I mean, when you get to a certain level (10,15?) you can create a hidden clan (that doesn't interfere with your belonging to one of the normal "visible" clans), which is called a Shadow "cell".
Shadow cells are like clans only as far as they have a founder/leader and they have a page in which to chat privately. BUT: they don't show in the clans page nor in the personal bio, they don't take part in tournaments and wars, they must be invite only, they don't have vaults (although they could have own banks and upgrades, if that doesn't complicate coding)

Joining a shadow cell would change your status into DF, but that would remain hidden to others. This decision is also irreversible, as you can't quit a shadow cell.
A Shadow cell's leader can recruit DFs by sending them invitations.
Obviously this would reveal himself as a DF to the receiver, therefore he should want to use some subterfuge and subtle talk before actually handing out the invitation. His clan mates could then help him recruiting.

That would create a situation in which people have to interact. A DF would have to do it to raise his side's numbers towards the LB. A non-DF would have to interact to try and prove himself good and to build a net of trust among good ones.

Being thus the task for DFs a little harder, there should be an offset for them. My idea is that, when you join a Shadow cell, you get "special dark powers". These powers have to be destructive, the like of: destroying a stock of weapons in a town's store, destroying a few random farms/gardens/kitchens in a town. To do this kind of harm, the DF will have to be in that town at that moment. There could be a sort of damages you could do to the clan you're in (talking about the visible ones), like destroying vault items or clan upgrades or money. (note that people could belong to 1 visible clan and 1 shadow cell at the same time, but no more than 1 per type)

Naturally there has to be a limit to this kind of actions one can perform, like for instance 1 action every 5 or 10 levels (and the higher the level, the more destructive the action). And there should also be a "risk" involved, which could be a random chance (30-40%?) to be found guilty and therefore publicly recognized as DF.

Why should DF fear to be recognized? First because that would hamper their recruiting, and when the LB comes they might be in disadvantage. Secondly, because "good" clan leaders wouldn't like them to join in. Thirdly, there should be "punishments" that high-rank DFs can inflict to "loser" DFs. (or, as an alternative, DFs that are found guilty in a town could be sanctioned by the local ruling clan, by paying a money fee, or by being banned from the town, etc..)

There should be a simple DF hierarchy, based on level. A DF can inflict punishments to lower-level DFs. Punishments should work as the other dark actions (1 every some levels, getting harsher by level).

[alSeen]

ok i have an idea for the darkfriend cells, what if u dont know who else is in it except for the leader (because he/she had to invite u). the message board could be anonymous(sp?) untill u reach a certain level in the DF hierarchy where u learn the names of everyone in your cell? this would keep people from spying with alts just to know who is a DF and limit the number of named DFs anyone knows. and not knowing anyone's name in the cell until u have power is like the meetings the DFs have in the books, because if im a Lord, i dont want to be ratted out by a filthy street urchin haha

[Crom Cruach]

Yeah you're right Alseen! That prevents using alts as spies and is also more realistic.

[Tintomara]

OK, I've not played in a while, but I decided to take a look at the forums, and see what's on its way, and age-ending pleases me. However, every single one of the ideas here make it so that everybody should want to be a darkfriend. There needs to be some reason for somebody to fight for the light, too! I don't have the answers to it, but balance of some sort is needed... And if it's supposed to be secret who is a DF, what would the consequences be if a DF is found out? If there are dire consequences for being made (and how would such an accusation be made and proven, consequences for the accusing person of they are incorrect, etc) then the perks make more sense.

Oh, and I'd say that if a person has multiple characters, they all have to be of the same affiliation. I know many would like to have one on each side to try what that side has to offer, but I don't like it! It'd be like being at war with yourself!