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Post by gerdonat on Dec 5, 2016 11:13:53 GMT -6
Seems right now there is a big unbalance between builds, ie, health gain + poison is a winner strategy.
A proof of this, are Faile and Talena, they have 100% win vs damage dealers, Faile in particular switched from damage to health gain + speed + poison and she beats all the damage focused chars 100% of the time, and she did this "throwing away" her first class, so she is using one class less with all the points she spent on them practically worth nothing (except maybe the speed from WB). I think the problem is twofold, first, health gain as mechanic is too powerfull, with a few ta's, you can nullify 75% of all the offense someone can throw at you, and if you somehow overflow the 75% you get double points on defense. So no matter how much i invest in damage/attack, health gain will nullify 75% of it, investing allways the same amount. I think health gain should change somehow, not really sure how, have not put much thought on it.
The second problem is simpler to solve, "of tinkers" ta is really broken, gives 15% health gain (more than the higher existing pure health gain ta) gives 5 dodge, almost the highest you can get from a single ta, and it gives 2 speed, just one less than the highest you can get from a single ta, and the only drawback is less damage, so a poison build not only does not has any drawback, but the supposed drawback makes the TA cheapier to use, and you can pack 5 of them without problem with your points...
Just some thoughts for discussion.
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 5, 2016 11:36:09 GMT -6
Compounded with this is the fact that speed is very powerfull, and has no counter strategy, wound costs the same than speed, but its usefullnes is less than half of it, since it hits 80% and you will do in average 50% of your wound damage, so as a rule of thumb, wound is 40% as effective as speed (its not exact that calculation), but costs the same. As a side note, making wound more powerfull would make every viable strategy to have to use speed or wound... so not sure is the right path. Besides, the drawback of using speed, is usually, less damage, so for a damage dealer, its much harder to use speed... in the other hand, you have of thinkers that its good for the 2 most broken game mechanics, and gives dodge just in case it was not enough with lots of health gain and speed.
Anyway, i m not saying that speed needs to be tweaked, just that it compounds with the others things that are unbalancing the game right now.
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Post by kaldar on Dec 5, 2016 15:53:48 GMT -6
I will admit that before the age I completely discounted of Tinkers for use because of the huge negative damage penalty. That is because I didn't see a viable strategy for only dealing damage using poison. This age has shown me that poison compounded with speed and health gain is more than enough damage to win almost every battle.
So, seeing that strategy can be effective, shows me now that of Tinkers is indeed completely broken. The only build that would use it would have no drawback, and as Ger said ... because the game thinks it has a drawback, it costs less to use.
The of Tinkers could just as well have a penalty of 30% damage to self ! it would still work just the same with no penalty for those that would use it.
I suggested to Talena that a possible fix for of Tinkers would be to simply remove the speed element from it. Talena's response was "That would make it a useless TA". I find that extremely interesting since it would still have the highest health gain of any TA, almost the highest dodge of any TA, and still only penalize damage dealers.
I honestly didn't forsee a build that would achieve 40-50 speed because I saw them as having to give up too much to gain that speed. Of Tinkers kills that argument. Think of this .... 5 of Tinkers gives 75% health gain, 25 dodge, 10 speed. Now you have your health gain and dodge taken care of all you have to do is spend every class point on getting your poison, more speed, and voila .... Anyway, I think it is a good thing for us to discuss to try and come up with a solution.
Trust me, I am not a fan of nerfing every mechanic as soon as someone uses it to their advantage. But I applaud Talena for really demonstrating the proper use of speed .... and honestly, how many people really want to make a boring ass no damage build just to counter it ?
At least I am finally doing "some" damage to Talena. For most of the first 50 levels of the age, my most offensive builds proved completely inept against that hard shell of a head she carries around.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 17:24:43 GMT -6
Your argument is that more damage should counter any opposing viable build. We spoke about this in PMs. I told you then what I'll tell you again here - if you are going to maintain a simple straight line strategy of piling on more damage, then you are going to get beaten pretty much every time. That's not broken TAs, that's not unbalanced mechanics, that's you being stubborn and making the (incorrect) assumption that your build should be the best and only supreme build, and any counter to that must be 'broken'.
Let's go over the counters to this. Again. Ones that you have completely discounted as also being 'useless' because they don't hold to your MO of stacking more damage.
Luck ... with the correction of the luck calculation, THIS WORKs. You don't want to build it in because it doesn't help your damage.
Break turn advantage ... if a pure poisoner loses their turn advantage, they lose a duel. It's really simple with poison's diminishing values. Again, you don't want to take the hard road of dropping damage and having a creative build.
Dodge ... Tim, would you care to share with the class your dodge build that had 100% win success against heavily built speed+dodge+poison with all the best toys?
Health gain cuts both ways. You are as capable of stacking health gain as anyone else.
The one you don't want to hear about - Taint ... A taint build with a balance of the above will actually destroy a poisoner, hands down. Seen it happen, fear it.
If you don't want to get creative with your build and think about countering, don't even talk about duelling, just hit NPCs because that's all you really want to do if you just want to stack damage and win. All that aside though, a monster damage build CAN be effective. I have never once in any age gone to duel KR under the assumption that I would definitely win. In fact it's only in one age where I had additional defensives stacked that I managed to pull a > 50% win rate against him, so that can also be done.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 17:30:18 GMT -6
Oh with the luck comment I also forgot to mention that the defender's is worth 2x the attacker's luck during combat. Or on the attacker's turn at least, which comes to the same thing ... thus why it hurts pure poisoners hard ... and you can't be a hybrid poisoner if you are using Tinkers, the damage deduction completely removes that as a choice, which leaves you with a glaring vulnerability.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 17:47:31 GMT -6
Gentlemen, flexibility the key to duelling, you need to be willing to adjust your build to suit the circumstances if you want to compete in the duelling arena. Faile is an excellent example of that, as you yourself described. You showed a weakness in your build strategy and he's taking you to task for it. The initial class loss of Faile's, or partial, is still perhaps less of a loss than the stats you have built into first strike, which is only a competitive stat against other raw damagers - so you have left yourselves short in a big way there. You're already behind in terms of efficient stat allocations. You are also dealing with I like to think somewhat experienced duellers who are going to take advantage of mistakes like that and punish you for them.
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 5, 2016 18:05:45 GMT -6
I m not saying damage should Trump all. Before the age i thought it would. And if it were the case i would be saying it too. Health gain is broken cause it works against evwrything. More than anything against taint. Since it heals it in the same turn that you get damaged. Any other stat has hiw weakness. And health gain works as a percent of the enemy skill. So with minimal spending you are controlling most of his damage in any way he does it. And thinkers is broken compared with any other Ta. Those are my 2 points. Of course i counter a build with the same build. But when 5 tas make irrelevant all your classes then there is a problem.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 18:25:01 GMT -6
The problem is you have 20% of a dataset and you are making a definitive claim. You have made exactly zero attempt at any sort of creative counter apart from piling on more damage, which is not going to help you here. You don't want to be flexible with your build, and that's fine, but again I'd suggest you simply stick to hitting NPCs if that's how you want to play.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 18:33:00 GMT -6
Look, here's a home truth for you ... you can't defend against everything. You just can't. Not possible. Every build has it's weaknesses, and if you adjust for that, then you simply create another weakness. This is one of the reasons I pick a less common build in any given age, because in order for you to defend appropriately against little ol me, you will have to open yourself up to being attacked by the bulk of other players. This does not mean that the game is broken, it means you have a hard choice to make because there is no one-size-fits-all build. I have an achilles heel myself, but it's one person, so I shrug and let it go rather than cry foul that one person can reliably beat me.
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 5, 2016 19:32:15 GMT -6
You are making a lot of assumptions of what i do and i dont. And they are mostly wrong. True, there are not tons of different builds out there, cause a few people care about dueling, but let me assure you that i have tested a lot of things. Anyway you didnt comment on my points only on your imagination of what i do or dont.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 20:33:49 GMT -6
Don't come here and tell me I'm making assumptions on what you are not doing. Your characters have how many duel wins/losses notched up? and you're here making complaints about unbalanced duelling. I can see exactly from my battle logs what you have 'tried' and 'not tried' ... you have tried pouring more damage on, and you have not tried anything else ... a couple of times. I was generous before in stating you had 20% of a dataset, you have next to nothing on real statistics, you just have 1 build that is hitting your weak spot and you are calling NERF!! Ask Tim how many losses I notched up, how many different build changes I made testing his dodge build, and his original pre-nerf health gain build. Don't lose one duel a day for a few days while you sit in your city, and attack once and fail and cry unbalance. Play the game, don't be afraid to lose in the interests of data gathering, and you'll learn more than your theorycrafting ever teaches you.
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 5, 2016 20:39:25 GMT -6
Please. I repeat please dont cite previous experience on dueling when the game spent not sure how many ages with luck working against expected vs poison and nobody ever realized it... the other point you made about what i have tested and what not... Will discuss it after the age. There is no point now.
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 5, 2016 20:42:00 GMT -6
Anyway. I just think this kind of discusiones are good to have even if i m totally wrong as you think. Dont discard the arguments without analyzing them.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 20:44:40 GMT -6
And, in answer to your original premise ... duelling is by nature unbalanced due to the fact that one side, if duelling 'properly' is actively probing for the weaknesses in other people's defenses, and then exploiting the hell out of them. If you aren't capable of handling the lessons given, if you expect to just be able to build some magical theoretical win-all build that holds it's own against everything, then you have just the plain wrong idea about duelling to begin with. It's a dance, and if you stay stiff legged, you're going to lose every single time. Loosen up, cop your losses on the chin and learn from them, don't sit down and cry when you get a blood nose.
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 5, 2016 20:50:58 GMT -6
If you think that pointing things that i find unbalanced is crying then there is nothing to talk about. As i said. I may be wrong. But you have not made any arguments to show it. Just citing my lack of testing/experience.
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