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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 21:03:31 GMT -6
Please. I repeat please dont cite previous experience on dueling when the game spent not sure how many ages with luck working against expected vs poison and nobody ever realized it... the other point you made about what i have tested and what not... Will discuss it after the age. There is no point now. Oh I think you might have misunderstood the luck implications in Tim's latest fix. There are certainly some circumstances where it helped a poison build, I'm not arguing that, but there was a definite and very large down side to that as well if you think about it, that had to be factored without knowledge of a working calculation - how do you get that? experience. You can't discount previous experience as simply as you would like. The current state of luck is still in test on my part, and shall continue to be for some time. Tim's fix has simply given you power-theorycrafting folks a means of creating a working defense, which you are conveniently neglecting to do, instead you're here crying about losing duels. Looking over logs I see a few things ... If I didn't have the health gain that I have, I would have lost some duels to damage dealt ... If I didn't have the speed that I had, I would have lost some duels to not being able to get enough damage out ... If I did not have accuracy built into my build there is a fair chance I would have critically missed and again lost due to damage out (I'll pause here to add that doing damage is ALSO a part of my damage mitigation, so not doing damage directly equals taking more damage) ... I see some token attempts at breaking turn advantage with stun and some speed obviously built in, but no real attempt made at challenging me there ... there is obviously some attempt at health gain, although that value is closer to your clan bonus than any real build added - and in fact, especially in your case, you have built more self damage into your sheet than health gain, so you are effectively killing yourself. I am having around 60-70% success rate on applying poison for the most part, which means you are not using luck effectively (which counts for DOUBLE in the defender calculation) So, yeah, again, rather than make any attempt at all to adapt to your enemy or acknowledging your own poor choices, you are crying about imbalance. This discussion would be GREAT to have if you had made any attempt at all to gather data, but alas you actually have not. Your offensive duel stats show exactly how much effort you have made, despite whatever pleas you make about how thorough your testing regime has been.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 21:16:26 GMT -6
Here you go ... put a quick lot of gear together with no Tinkers ... 3 levels below you ... so is having 3 tinkers gear in my inventory the cause of that loss? Try again, these are not the droids you are looking for.
Stat Talena Lord Turns 9 3 Stamina % 100% 31% Damage 0 136 Taint 32 0 Poison 759 46 Avg. Accuracy 115% 33%
Talena took 3 gold crowns, 65 silver marks, and 53 copper pennies
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 5, 2016 21:21:36 GMT -6
Ok. Forget i said anything we Will get back on the discusion when you believe i m worthy.
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 5, 2016 21:41:49 GMT -6
Congrats! You beat my non dueling build that is low on stamina underequipped and without consumables using no tinkers. That following some alien logic proves that tinkers is not broken... Even if you beat my dueling build using no tinkers. That proves nothing...
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 21:55:56 GMT -6
The second problem is simpler to solve, "of tinkers" ta is really broken So you pass blame onto an item as the cause of your problems, rather than your build ... but if that item is removed from the equation ... it proves nothing. OK, so you just want to let off some steam. Gotcha. We're on the same page now.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 22:16:57 GMT -6
On the strength of that, I'll throw whatever bits and pieces I have on and go down the list in some duels, just so you have so actual figures to theorycraft on, seeing as how you don't like to dirty your own hands so much with trivialities like initiating duels you might have a chance of losing. You'll get a few wins up that way while defending in your home city, to make you feel a bit better.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 22:38:14 GMT -6
There you go ... I did some duelling under the banner of mediocrity for your ego, not caring about who I was fighting or how my build related ... chew on those wins/losses, crunch your numbers, stress your spreadsheets, guess at variables and whatnot ... there was 6 different item +/- consumable combinations there, none of which were perfect against any one player.
The point I am trying to get through to you is that duelling is not about 'the best items' or 'the best build', those terms are only relevant in the context of the equipment/skills that the enemy you are fighting have. I personally change my items ALL THE TIME to suit who I am fighting at any given time, my best items are constantly in flux due to the current duelling landscape, and THAT is how you unbalance and win duels, no matter what system of nerfs and whatnot are put in place on the items available.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 22:42:10 GMT -6
So to address your first point - the combo of poison+speed+health gain in this age IS a winning strategy, but ONLY because you and the vast majority of your crew decided to build in the same direction. That is what allows a single unbalancing to occur, not the build itself. If there was more variety in what you presented, that would then force a change otherwise, but you don't ... you all persist in going down the tunnel vision path of thinking that MOAR DAMAGES is the single way to build, so you just plain make it easier for us. You do. Simple.
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Post by Tim on Dec 5, 2016 22:57:26 GMT -6
Ok. Both of you need to cool it a bit. I think a discussion about the pros and cons of different dueling builds would be a great thing. No battle system is ever perfect, so I'm open to useful suggestions of where balance might need to be tweaked.
However, bickering among yourself and spamming this thread with insults helps nothing and only makes the useful discussion harder to follow. Try to keep the animosity in game and be respectful to each other here. Otherwise, I'll have to put a stop to the discussion and we all lose out.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 5, 2016 23:09:09 GMT -6
Sorry Ger, Tim, thought I was playing nice, tbh, at least by my usual standards, considering my lack of patience with sugar coating what seems obvious to me. Upon reread perhaps I could be taken as a bit hot, but I intend only to say it straight, not to stab, so yeah apologies for that
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 6, 2016 6:12:20 GMT -6
As I see it, I tried to bring discussion to the board, and was disqualified from opining by Seitarin, if you reread my posts, I tried to bring back the thread to my original points several times, and the only answer is "you didnt duel enough, shut up"
Anyway, I m willing to forget it, and get back on the discussion.
I want to make clear my points:
I m not complaining that my build loses vs yours, I think you come out with a great build, and even without "of tinkers" your dueling build would beat my dueling build. Thats ok with me. If you see everything I say, as "he is complaining because he loses" then you wont even stop to consider other points.
I see health gain as a unbalanced stat compared to other stats in the game, because, as I said before, you only need to spend some of your resources to nullify most of the damage in any way they can throw it at you. How to fix this? two things that occur to me is, make health gain something you get independant of the damage, and that may allow you to get over your max health. Second option, cap health gain lower, and dont give 2v1 points.
I see wound unbalanced vs speed. How to fix this? not sure, make wound cheapier reaching +6 instead +3 could be an option, but could have lots of unintended implications that would be hard to measure.
I see tinkers unbalanced with respect to others TAs, I explained why a few posts before.
Just think on those 3 points, forget what chars there are this age, who beats who, and if you can, argue your points without disqualifying my experience, you should not need it.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 6:50:06 GMT -6
Read my posts in a David Attenborough voice, it helps ... they are not designed to be a slap in the face, they are designed to be cold hard fact.
Health Gain: Health Gain is equally available on both sides of the duel. If you nerf it, you are simply de-complexifying build variation and driving people further towards a cookie-cutter playstyle. Refer to V11 I think it was notes on HealthGain changes for reasons for current HG setup, or maybe the changes were V12 from V11 findings perhaps. If you think it's OP now, you would not have liked V11 and earlier at all. Tim would have owned every single one of you up one side of kinslayer's dagger and down the other.
Speed vs Wound: There is some grounds for question here, as wound is weighted the same as speed in terms of itemisation/skill allocation, and yet it's effect is not guaranteed. Doubling it's value compared to speed is almost certainly over the top in the opposite direction, but I can see a 1:2 wound vs 1:3 speed as potentially workable - simply due to the fact that although it's RNG based, it can still potentially double down, so same cost for a chance at a bit higher might be OK on the face of it. HOWEVER, there is also availability to take into account - there are only 9 available classes that can gain speed, 3 of which are heavily restricted by nationality with exclusivity, and 5 of which are item focus classes, and the single advanced class most readily available is a melee damage class that excludes channellers already. Wound is MUCH easier to take to higher values, so think very very carefully before making any suggestions here as there is potential to SERIOUSLY unbalance the game entirely in this stat group. This is all also without taking into account the fact that STUN is a readily available, 1:1 counter.
Tinkers: I don't know how many times we have to go over this one. Yes, it's a strong TA. It's also not common. It also completely pigeonholes you into special damage, leaving you vulnerable to certain counters. I'm not going to go over this again.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 7:03:49 GMT -6
Counter question - A melee character has the option to build such that 60% of a poisoner's damage is COMPLETELY nullified, which, due to the nature of poison, further nullifies another 25% each round of previously applied (if any) damage, which in turn increases the damage dealt by the melee attacker at the same time. Luck for the poisoner in this case only counts as HALF as much as the luck of the melee character. So, with that in mind, do you think that the Dodge calculation should count as half value for a defender against an attacker? I mean this is the only means a pure poisoner has to nullify a melee damage, and the melee attacker already has a (1-100)+accuracy head start, which means the poisoner gets doubly screwed over by both dodge/accuracy AND by Luck in these scenarios ... and on the basis of that, do you still really think that 15% health gain and +2 speed is really all that OP? I hope I was able to lend you a little bit of MY experience and perhaps some of your questions at least have been answered in this process.
EDIT: removed cranky David Attenborough comments, unnecessary.
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 6, 2016 7:37:20 GMT -6
About health gain, I think it would not be overpowered if it didnt work vs every type of damage... maybe health gain should not be able to heal taint? sounds reasonable... dont see me as a "raw damage defender" yes, this age my chars have been raw damage oriented, and was a mistake, one I wont certainly make again.
If you see from the point of a poison perspective, not only someone could lower to 40% effectiveness, but he could have 75% health gain, nullifying 3/4 of whatever else you get pass through... the same for taint, worse for taint cause it has not a great synergia with speed, and for poison and damage, at least if you go last he cannot heal your final damage. But taint does damage the same turn it gets healed... so taint is the most screwed by health gain...
About dodge vs accuracy, i dont see why you think the attacker has a head start, remove accuracy and dodge from the equation, and you get an standar d100 roll that if rolled low gives penalty, high gives bonus, and in the middle does nothing... then acc and dodge are just modifiers on that...
Not sure why luck for the attacker counts as half, maybe because luck calculation was wrong and tried to make it less efficient? i could see an argument that should count the same at both sides as valid. Anyway, poison and damage work so different that they are hard to compare, but remember health gains works against both, and against taint. Defender luck works vs taint and poison. Dodge works vs poison and damage, defense works only vs damage...
About wound, i certainly think that changing wound can have a lot of unintended consequences, and said that myself, just put the thought out there.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 8:07:06 GMT -6
Health Gain - it's equal on both sides of the equation, equally limited, equally beneficial, equal in every way. If someone else is building health gain and you find that you don't like the outcome, you are well within your rights to build and equal amount of health gain, which levels the playing field. Or you can work some other way out around the problem if you don't like that solution, but in the end xa=xb, eliminate x as a variable. Now if you'd like to discuss potential taint fixes, I think that adding a secondary effect to taint that nullifies half it's damage value of Health Gain (or something to that effect, maybe 10-20% might be a better number in thinking about it a bit) could be a very interesting revitalisation of taint as an effective damaging stat. That could be very interesting indeed - almost OP interesting to be honest, but yes taint needs a lift in my opinion.
Right, on Accuracy - For a raw damager, this is a +damage stat. Crit Rate if you were playing any other game. It is also a dodge mitigator. For a pure special damager, it's just a dodge mitigator, crit rolls for poison are ineffectual. Thus accuracy for a poison dealer is reduced in value compared to the same stat in a raw damager. Taint doesn't enter this equation, Acc can be ignored which is one advantage a tainter possesses. Luck is a +dmg stat in roughly the same way, not exactly but you get the gist of it, it's also a damage mitigator on both sides, but calculated at twice the value when mitigating as opposed to damaging. Yay for a raw damager with little to no special damage on both counts. So a poisoner gets half the mileage out of both accuracy and luck.
Wound/Speed is probably best left to the most experienced of us all, Tim. It's just too delicate to balance.
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