Clan Types

[Crom Cruach]

An idea for V8.. (sorry for the long post)

I think the clan system could undergo a change, which won't interfere with the clan-warfare developments in progress (actually they could be implemented together).
A prerequisite to this change, though, is the skill-tree change (as in Tim's post here: gosos.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=discuss&action=display&thread=1092&page=1 ), which basically splits into more steps the subclass skill upgrading.

Clans as they are now are an important feature for the game, but slightly off-setting in my opinion. Consider organisations as they are in the books: their members belong to just a few classes, usually no more than 2 or 3; they are more typified, every organisation would have their hierarchy system, their rules, etc.; most organisations are also the only place where to learn one class’ skills.

So, the first proposal is to characterize clans, creating "clan types" under which clans have to be created, according to their founder's subclass. Every clan type could be founded only by characters belonging to 1 or 2 specific subclasses.
Examples:
Aiel Clans could be founded only by Chiefs and Wise ones
White Tower by Aes Sedai and Warders
Band of Red Hand only by Redarms and Gamblers
Children of Light by Whitecloaks and Commanders
Sea Folk Clan by Sailmistresses and Cargomasters
Legion of Dragon by Fanatic and Mercenary
Darkfriend Cell by Darkfriends and Bandits

This way an Aiel clan couldn't be founded by an Ogier, and the White Tower couldn't be founded by a Whitecloak, which is something that always bugged me.

The first big consequence is that you have to be at least level 20 to be able to create a clan, which prevents the creation of "puppet" clans, clans that would be dumped straight after creation, and would limit the creation of "alt" clans, with members all belonging to 1 user.

But the major change would be in the class/skill advancement. Clans would be "schools" in which characters could learn their skills. I mean that if you're in a clan you could only add that clan's specific subclass(es) advancements to your career.
As I said, a prerequisite to this is the splitting of subclass advancements into more steps.
So, if for instance you are in the Black Tower at the time you reach a subclass advancement milestone, that can only be the Ashaman’s.
People could still spend their advancements in weapon’s and starting class’ skills no matter what clan they’re in.

As this involves only the specialized classes (subclasses), characters under the 20th level won’t notice any difference, they’d still be able to advance in their starting class no matter what clan they’re in.

But when characters start building specialized classes, they’ll have to join the right clan in order to access the advancements they want.
Examples:
Aiel Clans can train only Chiefs and Wise ones
White Tower can train only Aes Sedai and Warders
Band of Red Hand can train only Redarms and Gamblers
Children of Light can train only Whitecloaks and Commanders
Sea Folk Clan can train only Sailmistresses and Cargomasters
Legion of Dragon can train only Fanatics and Mercenaries
Darkfriend Cell can train only Darkfriends and Bandits
Some subclasses like Hunter or Thief-catcher don’t seem to fit well any organisation, so I think there could be “self-taught” classes whose advancements would still be accessible to anyone outside clans.

The main purpose of this change is to have characters stick to a clan for at least 20 levels (= when they get a new subclass), else they couldn’t upgrade their subclass skills.
That would improve clan loyalty in the short run, but at the same time it would encourage people who usually “stagnate” in the same clan throughout the game to try out other clans.

This way, clans would more “homogeneus” in members’ classes, just like the books’ organisations. It’d be more realistic to see an Aiel clan actually made of Aiel.
Besides, this is a way to make the spreading of points across the stats a little harder (since you would have to change many a clan).
Finally, this would help clan warfare, because opposed classes (like Aes Sedai and Whitecloaks) would find their best enemy in the opposed clans.

Clan would still have most of their current features (personalization by name, flag, desc, etc.; bank, vault, upgrades,..), but couldn’t be “invite only”.
I’d also add a personalised hierarchy rankings for each clan type.

[alSeen]

i have a few things i dont like with this. it causes people to be more disloyal to their clan after 20 levels (which is nothing if u are in the top ten for the game) it screws over clan leaders (i mean they have to abondon thier clan to join another to advance, not cool) and causes less uniqueness in class building since EVERYONE would join the strongest clan for 20 levels, then the next one. i think we could do a more open Shadow clan, Light Clan thing going on. the Shadow could have like a forsaken class while the Light could have a Hero of the Horn class. although their would be MANY requirements on those to stop everyone gettting it

[Crom Cruach]

it screws over clan leaders

Well I had in mind to specify that a clan's founder couldn't leave the clan otherwise the clan would disappear. That would make the clan creation something more elitarian, just for people either tired of levelling up or people dedicated to 1 class.

and causes less uniqueness in class building since EVERYONE would join the strongest clan for 20 levels, then the next one

Why would they? Actually that's what happens now: everyone picks among the top 2/3 clans (and rightly so) because they are the ones who can offer better help, vault and town control.
Whereas with the change, even a minor clan would have a chance to get members if it trained classes that were not covered by the top ones.

Anyway I understand your concern about clan loyality. I had thought that maybe the loyality to your clan would rather encourage you to stick to that clan's class. But without doubt the chance to advance in new subclasses is more important than being loyal to a clan.

i think we could do a more open Shadow clan, Light Clan thing going on

Differencing Light and Shadow clans is a must in my opinion, and I hope Tim has something on the go.

But still that doesn't fix that:
- any class can join any clan, and that doesn't reflect what happens in the WoT. If clan stay as they are, undefined and with a mixture of classes, clan warfare (when implemented) might run out of motivations soon, because when every town's securely held by a clan there aren't many other reasons to fight
- anyone can create a clan, which leads to puppet clans, etc.
- paradoxically, even if it's so easy to create a clan, no more than 5 clans per version are really active, and 90% of players are in the top 2-3

[Tim]

Finally getting around to replying. This is probably the 3rd time I've started to write a reply, but never had time to finish it.

There are many things that this idea would resolve that I like. It would:

• make training organizations to give people another way to develop their characters
  
• make smaller clans more meaningful, but reduces the number of throw-away clans
  
• encourages like-classes in the same clan
  
• discourage mega-clans (one or two big clans that have 2-3 times the people as everyone else)
  
• give clans a more defined purpose
  
• encourage interaction with more players
  
• help focus character development
  
• make organizations closer to those in the books
  
• make clans meaningful to more than just the clan leaders.
  

All of these are good things and goals that I have for the game. All that being said, I do see some problems with it too.

First, let's face it: Clans don't have much of a point right now. Most clan chats are pretty empty (with a few exceptions), as more people post on the global chat instead, so you done need clans to interact with people anymore. Also, the bonuses clans give are pretty minor. And after the first month or so, control of all the towns are pretty much decided. Besides all town control gets you is 20% of the income from the shop (which usually your clan is the only one that updates anyways) and the ability to tweak the dice game rules. And that's only if you're the leader or subleader. General clan members don't really gain much of anything for being in a clan...

That being said, I do think clans can and should become a more important part of a the game. They just need to be more meaningful. Wars and battles between clans (beyond just battling in the same area to try to get control of a town for prestige reasons) are something that a lot of people want to see. But if we move clans the direction you suggest, I don't think wars or clan battles would be that successful. Kinda like what Alseen said, there wouldn't be as much loyalty to clan and therefore less motivation to fight. Why would I do things that may not be in MY best interest for a clan that I plan on leaving in a few levels? That doesn't mean that we can't add training or give clans meaning beyond war, but I think the way you propose would restrict other means of improving clans.

I do pretty much agree with your point that having such a random assortment of classes in a clan is kinda odd when compared to the books. It depends on how you look at clans I suppose. If you look at clans and think organizations like the White Tower, any Aiel Clan, or the Whitecloaks, then yes things are way too diverse. But if you look at things the groups that travel around Rand, Mat, or Perrin, then we aren't too much more diverse than they are.

I do miss the old days when we had The White Tower/Salidar/The Black Tower (mostly channelers), Malkier (mostly Warriors and Wanderers), The Nine Valleys Sept (mostly Aiel), the Wolfbrother (mostly Wolfbros), and the Forsaken (darkfriends). While each clan had a few exceptions, there were unspoken themes for each clan and people of those types usually gravitated to those clans. Nowadays, even clans like the Black Tower and the White Tower are maybe 50% channelers, with wildly varying subclasses. Not that variety is bad, but there is little to set clan A apart from clan B, except for the people in them and their size (and thus strength).

I do like the idea of bringing back Light and Shadow clans (and probably neutral too). Could lead to larger wars with the Light clans against the Shadow clans.

*Crap! It happened again! I get a good chunk of the way into this post and need to go do something else! Well this time I'm posting what I have so far. Know that there IS more coming, including some suggestions. Might not get back to this til tomorrow nite though. Sorry!*

[Tim]

*Continued*

What if instead of restricting clans to a few specific types, we leave it toallow anyone who wants to join can. However, allow each clan to either provide bonuses or training for a few (2, maybe 3) subclasses. This would encourage members of the clans to choose the subclasses that their clan would give them the most boost for, but still allow members to be other classes if they want. So for example an Aiel clan might choose to give boosts to Wise Ones and Chiefs, but if someone wanted to be in the clan and be a gambler, it'd be ok too. They just wouldn't get all the benefits they could.

[alSeen]

but the leaders need to pick them. i mean we know Ed will pick Ashaman for one of the BTs at least but the Legion is a little tougher since there are no classes for it (unless u want to create one lol)

[Crom Cruach]

I do miss the old days when we had The White Tower/Salidar/The Black Tower (mostly channelers), Malkier (mostly Warriors and Wanderers), The Nine Valleys Sept (mostly Aiel), the Wolfbrother (mostly Wolfbros), and the Forsaken (darkfriends).

You're missing Dragonmount, my first clan ever
I still remember the epic chase to Malkier during some version...

Anyway, yeah I think it could work that way. Maybe clans could open "schools" just like they'd open shops??
Every school would train 1 subclass. There'd be upgrades for them (= makin more advancements available).
I know it isn't exactly realistic, but think at it this way: an indefinite group like Rand's entourage could open many schools, though couldn't upgrade them too much, whereas another clan like the Black Tower could focus their upgrades on Ashaman's class.
This would give freedom of choice to leaders: Ed could see his Ashaman trained to perfection, Alseen could either spread upgrades across subclasses or finally find his Legion's ideal class and focus on that one.
And people would be free to join any clan regardless of their class (it would work to limit the number of classes that populate a clan anyway).
I remember the schools' idea was in someone's suggestion some time ago, though not exactly in these terms. Maybe some details could be retrieved if we found it.

[Edvar al'Given]

haha sounds great. Except for one thing. While the asha'man class is fitting, I've never cared much for it and don't use it as a sub class.

[Crom Cruach]

I know, sorry for using you as example. But the BT fitted in well because in the books it was born as a school itself.
If leaders have freedom of choice, in the Tower you could teach being an Aiel. But then don't blame me if Taim kicks you out.

[Edvar al'Given]

Taim? Who is this Taim? I am the M'hael. Lol. No worries Crom. You are exactly right. It does make sense. Just never found that sub class useful. Too bad too. In the books asha'man are the deadliest fighters. In GoS....less than average

[alSeen]

yeah we may need to revamp the ashaman class. i like it but only after i got some speed on haha