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Post by Tim on Sept 8, 2008 10:55:52 GMT -6
Ok. This topic has been a long time coming, and has been touched on every so often, but I think we need to have an open discussion purely about this topic and how to handle it. So we all know that most of the players in the game have more than one account (kudos to those of you playing just one). These alternate accounts (mainly refered to as alts) have been a fact of life for all GoS players since the begining. There are pros and cons to allowing alts: - Pros:
- There is little to do in the game, especially once you get your character set up. Alt's allow for you to keep busy in the game.
- There tend to be few players to battle at certain levels sometimes. Alts allow for more players and therefore more people to battle.
- There are different possible strategies to chose from (with even more coming in v2!). Having alts allow for people to try out more of these options without waiting for a new release.
- People like to interact with as many others as possible. Having alts in different clans allows for more people to interact with.
- Cons:
- People with alts can trade items between their characters, increasing the chance they'll get the items their looking for.
- A person can load up a clan full of alts and use them to rack up the clan's win total quickly.
- A person can battle only his alts, using them to increase their win count and experience quickly.
- Taking alts into account throws a lot of wrenches into otherwise sound ideas for the game. Allowing alts allows for many loopholes.
So my question is what should be done? I can enact rules saying only one character per person, but I don't really want to limit people that much. I also could just let things continue as they are, but that does nothing to address the problems being caused. I can throw in countermeasures to reduce the benefits to alts, but I can only code so much. There will always be loopholes, as long as there are alts allowed and even some if they aren't (removing alts by no means fixes all the problems). So what do you think should be done to handle this situation?
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Post by Morgaine Le Fay on Sept 8, 2008 11:25:36 GMT -6
I'm for alts, and against them too. I like having one or two alts, but i know that they can used to "cheat" and all. I think the main problem is some people having TOO many alts, that they use. Something of the ilk that is going on in that clan "The Shadow" if you know what i mean. The way forward is to not make having one or two alts a problem, but having extraneous ones an issue. I think email verification might be useful. It could put people off making a ton of alts. One character for every verified email address. Sure, most people have more than one email address, however it would be quite time consuming to have to create multiple email accounts, create your characters, verify said emails, then play those characters. I also think in this case, you should only allow email addresses from certain domains, so that people cant use disposable email addresses. Allow all the majors - like hotmail, msn, yahoo, gmail etc, and their derivatives. I know this might put people off, but it'll stop them using mailinator etc. And if someone is playing an online game and they dont have at least one msn/yahoo/gmail/aol email address then they don't deserve to be on the internet, quite frankly
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Post by Jay alAvid on Sept 8, 2008 11:26:45 GMT -6
What should be done: ? - Limit 'alts' to 3 ! - Create a simplified 'alt' managment screen (level the playing field, to more easily facilitate the use of your alts) ~ Summary with items, skills, clan, location and char stats ~ select box to trade items How should it be done: For me, the IP# checking would be very useful - I simply don't have time to run around and switch IP#'s (and I can't from work). ? input on IP# spoofing? - not something I know about, although I can research it if you want. - Captcha use (not my favorite, and it makes everything slow for everyone) - but is fairly effective. ( recaptcha.net/plugins/php/thoughts? [edit]added Wikipedia link for Captcha[/edit] edit]added PHP Captcha resource[/edit]
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Post by Jay alAvid on Sept 8, 2008 11:32:56 GMT -6
Database issues Add a 'USERS' table, and add 'userID' to the 'CHARACTER' table. reassign the login/cookie to check against the 'USERS' table, use 'session' or db call to check for the 'active' character for the user add an include to verify the USER credentials on each page
set a minimum time to be logged in for each CHARACTER (to prevent rapid "cmputer" switching)? "You cannot change characters yet." - like 1-2 minutes?
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Post by Smasho Smashoria on Sept 8, 2008 12:49:35 GMT -6
I think that 3 alts is a reasonable number. It still allows some wiggle room as far as there not being much to do in the game while waiting for your duels to refresh, but it keeps a limit on people making legions of alts to use to advance their main character or rack up their clan kills.
I have to admit, I made an alt to join my clan, and I did so mainly to take a particular city that was ungoverned and contested between myself and another certain clan who shall remain nameless. While it's not strictly by the books, it did make for some fun for the people involved in that bit of strife, and I plan to use the alt to do other fun things now that I've got the town.
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Post by Jay alAvid on Sept 8, 2008 13:08:14 GMT -6
no.
actually, "POST" was always required on the 'create character' screen; so I had it done a long time before it was even brought up.
"POST" does require some programming knowledge, where the "GET" method does not - so there is some benefit to changing this out.
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Post by Jay alAvid on Sept 8, 2008 13:17:15 GMT -6
There is some benefit to having a bunch of character wandering around the world of GoS; but even now, I only play a certain set of characters - although it's more like 10 - not 3-4...
Perhaps there can be an 'NPC' enhancement to fill that void; a set of NPC's could be introduced as players improve their characters past each key level in the game. (?)
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Post by Tim on Sept 8, 2008 13:27:36 GMT -6
Well, I have long been an advocate of the idea that if I add enough to the game to keep people busy, alts will become less of an issue. However, adding things to keep people busy take time and most are likely a ways off.
Yeah, Jay let me know that POST didn't really hold him up any. In his defense, he's been very open with me about what exactly he's doing. Doesn't mean there's an easy way around it. Captcha might stop autogenerated characters, but I wouldn't force that for everything, especially battling. That'd be too much effort for players to put up with I think.
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Post by Jay alAvid on Sept 8, 2008 13:55:43 GMT -6
Well - perhaps a simple test would be in order to start.. here is a quicky "IP# widget" in PHP. You probably already have one, PHP is not my language - so I'm not going to be much help here.. IP# function for PHPMaybe add "IPnum" as a FIELD in the character table, then do a SQL query in a day or so - and see how many dupes you get. I for one should show up as 1 of 3 different IP#'s - as Tim already knows.
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Post by Tim on Sept 8, 2008 15:12:18 GMT -6
Would be interesting to see just how many different users there are out there, or at least an approximation. I know there are a few siblings that play and would likely have the same IP. If I do limit accounts based on IP, I would add in some sorta work around access that can grant extra accounts to certain IPs with my permission if you can convince me there are multiple actual users based from the same IP.
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Post by Almon Crisade on Sept 8, 2008 22:45:08 GMT -6
*twiddles his thumbs looking all modest like* Well the wonderful Almon has a few words if he may. Truth of the matter is in some eyes I have an alt, Nailo Omar he is in my sig, my cousin, and yes I do play him a lot. However, the reason why I made him was for a friend I live with in the navy (and when I join I will be come inactive for a good two months...which will be heartbreaking to any still active members in Unbroken Ring) so in my eyes it's not nearly as much of an alt as most others. Aye it does give a good sense of direction looking at it and saying hmm, lets see what it's like to be an archer. Tried it with Nailo and I about shat myself to see myself at lv 14, taking two cities and having a 99% win ratio losing only his first fight o.o (that and taking a lv 10 down at lv 4 is no easy feat but very impressive) Two-three being the most alts I suppose is good for toughs players who enjoy experimentation however ahem...shadow's thanks for nothing but I was a victim of this alt army and to be honest call me butt hurt over nothing but I lost two cities, wait...three forgot Tear is close to being taken now. To this person and I personally find it upsetting that even if the situation is handled (thank you tim) they still have their points there and therefor my city is still taken hence why your shields haven't been upgraded my friends sorry Just a few words sorry to bug out again...
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Post by Tim on Sept 8, 2008 23:36:33 GMT -6
Almon,
Like you said, the situtation has been handled. The Shadow clan will no longer use alts... inappropriately. I'm sorry you lost control of a few cities, but really without using their former methods you should be able to reclaim these territories with a little effort. It is a game after all. I believe you said in another thread that you dislike those who take games so seriously they feel the need to 'cheat' or 'exploit the system'. I am well aware of what exactly the Shadow was doing and according to the rules on alts (there really aren't any now), they didn't break any. Was what they did fair? No. Which I why I have asked them to cease such activites and they have agreed to stop.
This is part of the reason I brought this topic up, but not the only reason. There are many in the game who exploit the use of alts, in similar and other ways. (like the 'cons' I listed above). It's an issue I'm looking into and plan to fix.
However, the Shadow situation is over and done with. Let it be. Yeah, you lost control of some cities. If you don't like it, take them back. That's what the game is for. Raise up your troops and strike back. If you can't, then no offense you probably didn't have the power to hold all those cities anyways. If you have a problem with how I handled the situation, come to me. Please don't call out other players of the game on this forum. It makes for an unfriendly environment and causes me to have to make post like this, which I don't particularly enjoy doing.
Lets just all get along and discuss ways to prevent future situations like this from occurring.
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Post by Tintomara on Sept 8, 2008 23:58:32 GMT -6
Apart from the sibling issue, there are other cases where you'd need a work-around for IP numbers. If I've understood correctly, there are countries where everyone has the same IP number (Singapore? I can't be bothered searching for that thread in the WoE forum, where it was mentioned).
This is a tricky subject, as you said yourself. There are both good and bad things about alts. I agree with the statements that with time, some of the good reasons for having alts will dissipate, and maybe, maybe it could be limited to no alts then. That would be nice, even if I currently enjoy having different characters.
Oh, you forgot one pro for alts, though. Since there is no way to hide your online status, I'm sure I'm not the only one with an anonymous alt or two, that I can log onto and see what's going on, without telling the whole game that I'm there...
Without spending a lot of effort, I think it will be really hard to find a way to truly limit everyone to one char, but I think most of us would use just the one char (or whatever limit you put on it) if that was the rule. Anyone who wanted to work around this would have to be found using all the tools available, like IP numbers, checking email adresses, passwords, playing patterns etc of suspicious cases. Probably easier to enforce if there can only be one account per player. If more chars are allowed, but there's still a limit, then I think something along Jay's idea would have to be implemented, or have one account give you the possibility to use x number of chars (but you could use just the one if you wanted to). It will at least make it slightly easier to find the ones with more accounts...
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Post by ger on Sept 9, 2008 9:11:03 GMT -6
Well, i think 2 things should be made, first put some written and clear rules with a code of conduct, for example: You cant have more than X alts. You cant attack your alts. (i think thats the main problem with the atls) You cant undermine one char to benefit other, for example you cant undress a char so another can beat him easyly. etc. The rules wont be easy to enforce, but the fact that they exists, will make most people not break it, for those that break it, the best way to detect that, is to record all the battles a char does, and make the battle log public, so people can detect odd behaviours... That togheter with tracking the ip of the chars should be enough to detect most of the violations. Will not be a infalible system, but should be enough, players dectect easily when other players do odd things, and can report to you, so you investigate, of course, it will take some of your time.
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Post by Tim on Sept 9, 2008 10:29:53 GMT -6
Keeping a list of all battles that everyone does would be a bit ridculous to store in the database (hence the current cap at 50). There are easier ways to get around some of the 'cheating'.
After some of the discussion, here's what I'm thinking: 1st post rules about alts and alt use (similar to what ger suggested above). On top of that, I will keep track of the most recent (possibly more than one) IP addresses that each character is accessed from. I'll add in code to check for more than X accounts from the same IP, prevent trading between the same IP, and probably even battling between the IPs.
For cases, where there are multiple people from the same IP (provided they have some proof), I'll create and exception list where these IPs are allowed X * Y accounts (Y being the number of players that use it). If there were a case where as was said a whole country used the same IP, then Y would be pretty large...
This may be a little overboard, but it does more to prevent abuse. There are still some pretty simple ways around it, but this would make things more difficult at least. Thought?
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