|
Post by alSeen on Nov 14, 2010 21:10:54 GMT -6
so i havent seen anything about v7 at all yet. so im starting a tread on what we would like in v7 or maybe versions farther along. right now all i can think of thats been posted is more stuff for clan warfare, wealth = power with estates (and a few other ways), and a revamp of the market. does anyone else have anything they would like to see in the new versions?
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Nov 15, 2010 11:34:35 GMT -6
Let me narrow you guys focus a bit before the ideas start flowing. For V7, I plan to focus on changes regarding the item system (including inventory, market, shops, and probably a few duel changes) and clans (vaults, bonuses, town control, and war). I'll also probably make a few more changes here or there too. Yeah, that doesn't narrow things down too much, huh? I will say this though: I really like the estate idea, but it won't happen in V7. There are lots of good ideas related to it, many yours and some mine, but I want to add them right and don't think I'd have time to add them for V7 while making the other planned changes. As of right now though, estates (or some similar concept) will be a major part of V8. Based on the changes I've made so far in V7, I think you guys should be pretty happy (I hope at least). Making some changes that have been asked for a lot, and a few more that may not have been asked for directly but I'm pretty sure will make your lives easier. And I'm in the process of taking care of one of the bigger issues that has been nagging me about GoS since I started playing. How's that for a tease?
|
|
|
Post by Crom Cruach on Nov 16, 2010 10:41:27 GMT -6
One of the biggest issues... mmm... does it concern money? Many problems in the past revolved around gold and gold accomulation Anyway, I'll welcome any new feature in the inventory or market. But I'd also like the professions system to get better balance. As it is now professions aren't very profitable. There's also one thing I would like amended: the possibility of chosing multiple subclasses. I think that it should be capped at 2 or 3 classes maximum. And one last small thing: I'd like there to be little icons to come with the effects in the battle page. I mean like putting a vial next to the poison string, a skull for taint, a cross for life gain, etc. It can give a quicker idea of the stats involved in a duel, expecially at higher levels, when you can use many of them.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Nov 16, 2010 13:03:56 GMT -6
One of the biggest issues... mmm... does it concern money? Many problems in the past revolved around gold and gold accomulation No, the one I mentioned doesn't really, though I agree the 'economy' situation is still a large issue. Agreed. When I came up with the values and costs involved with professions, I just took a wild stab at about what they should be. Based on the what people's business earnings look like, I was quite a bit off... Why do you think that? Just curious. Interesting idea. The duel display has been pretty much the same for as long as GoS has been around. It could definitely use some updating...
|
|
|
Post by Crom Cruach on Nov 17, 2010 6:35:36 GMT -6
Because classes are meant to diversify characters. If you allow them to pick too many classes, then there isn't much diversification. Besides, people get access, through skills, to modifiers for most, if not all, stats by just picking a couple of classes. Example: Crom has 1 class + 2 subcl.; he already gets modifiers for Damage and Defence (abs. and %), Stun, Poison, First Strike, Speed, Dodge, Accuracy, Health gain, Taint and damage to self. I think there's every stat I can think of And that's not including his weapon's skills.. The way I look at it, joining classes shouldn't allow you to choose among ALL stats; on the contrary, your class(es) should restrain you to use only some of them. If that couldn't persuade you, then think of the books characters. They hardly can be said to belong to more than 2 or 3 classes, even the main ones. Perrin could be a Woodsman with the Wolfbrother subclass, and probably the Commander subclass too. But they're the top guys, so that should be the top limit for GoS' characters. By the way, thanks to the guy that matched the subclasses to their icons on the Wiki! (but the Fanatic doesn't have Rags, it has the Light sign)
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Nov 17, 2010 8:13:50 GMT -6
Because classes are meant to diversify characters. If you allow them to pick too many classes, then there isn't much diversification. Besides, people get access, through skills, to modifiers for most, if not all, stats by just picking a couple of classes. Example: Crom has 1 class + 2 subcl.; he already gets modifiers for Damage and Defence (abs. and %), Stun, Poison, First Strike, Speed, Dodge, Accuracy, Health gain, Taint and damage to self. I think there's every stat I can think of And that's not including his weapon's skills.. The way I look at it, joining classes shouldn't allow you to choose among ALL stats; on the contrary, your class(es) should restrain you to use only some of them. If that couldn't persuade you, then think of the books characters. They hardly can be said to belong to more than 2 or 3 classes, even the main ones. Perrin could be a Woodsman with the Wolfbrother subclass, and probably the Commander subclass too. But they're the top guys, so that should be the top limit for GoS' characters. Good points. When I set up the classes, I was trying to avoid making it too easy to focus on just one stat, but you're right. As it stands it's to easy to get access to ALL stats ( or almost all. You're missing Wound. ). Also when I added classes, most people rarely got to level 60. Since I leveled out the leveling curve, it made it easier to get higher levels. I agree some adjustments should probably be made. YAY!! Someone else updated something on the wiki!!!! Thanks indeed! I filled in the missing holes for ya (rags is for bandits, and warders are blue herons, just hard to see). Go Team!!!
|
|
|
Post by almordre on Nov 17, 2010 11:15:30 GMT -6
LOL - I was still kind of fiddling with those icon matchups - didn't catch anyone online yesterday to ask about the ones I wasn't sure of :-)
Thanks for cleaning up behind me on those, Tim...
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Nov 17, 2010 14:54:20 GMT -6
No problem! Any other wiki updates you want to make, go right ahead. ;D
|
|
|
Post by almordre on Nov 18, 2010 12:49:50 GMT -6
I can see where limiting the number of spec classes makes sense. Right now, though, even with access to several spec classes, I've only devoted skill points to specific skills that boost certain stats central to my build. The skill points do control the situation somewhat, already - you can devote skill points across the "board" to moderately boost lots of stats, or you can heavily boost one or two particular stats and only lightly boost the others. [Observation: evenly spread, "jack-of-all-stats" builds don't seem to have a chance against builds that focus heavily on one or two stats ( yes, talking about Speed .] Limiting the number of spec classes could slow down the progression a bit - instead of adding new classes and the low-level/low-cost skills they bring, we'd be forced to save skill points longer to add higher levels to the fewer skills in our build. One big potential problem with this, though, is that tweaking stats with skills has been the only real mods to my build for about the last 40+ levels. Even now, knocking on the door of level 100, I feel like there's a big "hole" in the equipment progression. I've had essentially the same tali combos for a very long time now, and since leveling enough to carry the biggest weapons, the ONLY gear changes have been to add those same talis to the next-higher armor every 4-5 levels. The "top-shelf" multi-stat talis are still too expensive (equip points) to use, and when I've tried them on lower-tier weapons, they've been notably less effective than the single-stat, heavy-boost talis from a couple shelves down. On one hand, I think it would be interesting to try a scenario where we added a spec class at lvl20, lvl50, and lvl100. On the other hand, adding the extra spec classes and tweaking my build with those stats has been the only way to grow/adapt my build since basically lvl60, I think. ... Think this might be the longest, most drawn out "I dunno " on record 'round here?
|
|
|
Post by alSeen on Nov 18, 2010 14:50:47 GMT -6
what if instead of limiting classes u can pick, we add "levels" of each class. about three a level that focus on two or three stats but are stronger and more expensive than the preseding class. as in instead of ashaman. u get to start out as a Soldier, then Dedicated, and finally Ashaman. or Commander, general, great captain (isnt that what Rodel is called?). of course that would mean a reworking of the entire classes so know what? dont worry bout it haha
|
|
|
Post by Crom Cruach on Nov 19, 2010 0:59:25 GMT -6
You're perfectly right there, but I was talking about the fact that you get access to every stats; then, what you decide to do with your skill points is another matter.
I didn't think about that actually.. maybe with the inventory changes Tim has in mind, that gap you're talking about might be filled in V7?
Why not? There could be 3 levels for every subclass, and every one gives one skill, starting from the passive one. Obviously that implies some extra work that Tim probably had not foreseen..
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Nov 19, 2010 11:26:46 GMT -6
Nice ideas! Yay discussions!
Interesting points on the higher levels. I definately need input in that area, as I rarely play characters past level 40 or so nowadays. I will say with my planned changes to equipment for V7, you'll have to be level 47 to even equip the top tear weapons, and won't have enough points to equip top tear in all you slots til you're level 100 (lvl 36 and lvl 76 respectively in the current setup). That's not counting any talismen effects on your equipment. Plus there hopefully will be a lot more of a variety of upgrading for you to do. We'll see how it plays out, but you should have quite a few more equipment setups possible.
You guys have persuaded me that the skills need some rework. I had forseen some SMALL rework as part of V7 due to my equipment and item stat (minor) changes, but no I didn't foresee that level of work involved. The level idea sounds good, as I was originally planning for more of a skill tree for each class. What would seem ideal to me would be if each class focused on 2-3 stats, and had multiple levels of active skills. Something like (ignore the periods): Starting classes: ....P....P.... 2 passive skills; 1 stat each .../.\.../.\... .A....A....A. 2 ok active +1 good active; middle focus on balance of both stats .|.....|.....|. .A....A....A. 2 good active +1 great active; middle focus on balance of both stats .|.....|.....|. .A....A....A. 3 great active; middle focus on balance of both stats
Specialized: ....P.... 1 passive skill with 2 stats. .../.\... .A....A. 2 ok active skills, each with a focus on 1 stats + others .|.....|. .A....A. 2 good active skills; stronger versions of previous level .|.....|. .A....A. 2 great active skills; high stat boost for 1 of original + other stats.
The tree could get more complicated, with more branching and such, but really there's only so much variation I can do with skills without repeating them or making them overly complicated/strong. Doing something like that would take a lot of planning/balancing, so it's iffy if I could handle that for V7. Already have to pretty much redo all the items and pretty much all the businesses need some tweaking to make it possible for them to be actually profitable. Redoing all the classes on top of that might not be feasible. With all the other things I'm finding that NEED done, my planned changes for Clan interactions are already looking like they might need pushed back a version. We'll see how things play out.
The bigger issue to me seems to be that the stats are still inbalanced. Is speed still THE key to winning duels at high levels? Any thoughts on what needs to be done to keep things balanced? If all stats were balanced, being a jack-of-all trades should allow you to be at least pretty competitive... Or a person focused on health gain should be as effective as someone focused on speed.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by almordre on Nov 19, 2010 13:35:59 GMT -6
Haven't really experimented with other-stat builds in v6 - mostly in "fight fire with fire" mode, up against heavy Speed/First Strike opponent(s). At the higher levels, it's fairly easy for a build to include enough damage to overpower the health points in 2-3 hits. From that point in the game, it's pretty simple to just load speed to get two hits in a row, and get fairly consistent wins. Dunno if slight nerf to speed, or increase in health points would work better to help balance that out... In the past, never had any luck with other builds - but since the defense-stat coding fix, it's time for a new round of experiments. Just haven't had the time (or tali supply) lately - hoping for a day off next week, maybe. :-) I like the current class/skill set arrangements. As far as the new skill tree format shown above - what happens to the skills/points invested in the lower skills, as you progress beyond them? Still in effect, maybe get points from lower skills back to reallocate to new higher skills? ...? I kind of like the thought of the slower progression brought on by limiting the classes/skill choices, but here's another thought to add to the mix that might work well with that limiting, or be useful in some other way. Rather than a new skill tree format, how about just building in a couple points where the base skill level number ('x' in the formulas) gets a multiplier to boost the skills' effects - like once a skill reaches level 6, that base "x" gets multiplied by 1.5 - so at level 6, the stat boost math would be figured using 9 instead of 6. A second boost to doubling the level number at level 12 or so, and you effectively have your three-tiered skill tree, without having to create/code new skills - just by adding in an if/then multiplier for "x".
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Nov 19, 2010 15:12:01 GMT -6
Haven't really experimented with other-stat builds in v6 - mostly in "fight fire with fire" mode, up against heavy Speed/First Strike opponent(s). At the higher levels, it's fairly easy for a build to include enough damage to overpower the health points in 2-3 hits. From that point in the game, it's pretty simple to just load speed to get two hits in a row, and get fairly consistent wins. Dunno if slight nerf to speed, or increase in health points would work better to help balance that out... I am planning on having health increase a little faster in this version. Way back in V1 or 2, when I first added equip points, 6 health per level was a lot closer to keeping you alive for most of a duel. Now that there are so many other stat boosts at work, it doesn't take long to get to 2-3 hit kills. Hopefully I can figure out a growth rate that keep battles more interesting. Yeah, when I open the test site for V7, hopefully you guys will run different builds through their paces. Will probably do an accelerated battles/xp run for a while just so you can try different things out and see how they work at higher levels, without spending MONTHS of testing. Good question. Haven't really put any thought into it. Just through that up as that was closer to my original vision of the skill trees and kinda fit with what people were suggesting. That might be a pretty good solution. So in your example, lets say you have a stat that raises accuracy by 1 per skill level. lvl 1: 1 lvl 2: 2 lvl 3: 3 lvl 4: 4 lvl 5: 5 lvl 6: 9 lvl 7: 11 (if I round up) lvl 8: 12 lvl 9: 14 lvl 10: 15 lvl 11: 22 (made it double here instead of at 12 for consistency: every 5 lvls) lvl 12: 24 lvl 13: 26 lvl 14: 28 lvl 15: 30 I'd probably add a skill level cap of 15 (has anyone even come close to this in the current system?), just because the stat bonuses would get a bit too ridiculous for some of the better skills other wise. Granted, it would take 120 skill points to even get a skill to lvl 15, so I suppose there's a trade off. Would give people a reason to invest more in some of their skills, as opposed to the current system which really encourages you to spread you points around. Also, might not have it be straight x1.5 and x2, skills that start out by going up by 2's would add +60 to a stat at level 15! Maybe have those go to 2.5 an 3... Still, the general concept might be a workable solution.
|
|
|
Post by alSeen on Nov 19, 2010 15:32:32 GMT -6
i think a cap at 15 is enough. i doubt anyone will spend 120 points on one skill since if u have the right build u can get most of the other stats for cheaper and it adds on anyway
|
|