The Talismen Issue

[Tim]

So this discussion comes up again and again. Talismen. They don't fit with WoT. Nothing like Talismen in WoT. Closest would probably be Ter'angreal, but that doesn't fit either as Talismen get applied directly to items and are permanently bound to them, while Ter'angreal just statically affect the user. And I'll even add this nugget of info: I have a plan for adding Ter'angreal to the game, but it's not happening in V6. So now would be good time to get this settled.

So I can think of 4 options:
1) Do nothing. Talismen don't fit with WoT but they've been in GoS since the beginning. GoS without Talismen isn't GoS. Sure they don't fit with WoT, but it doesn't have to be perfect.

2) Just rename talismen to Ter'angreal. Sure, it doesn't fit perfectly, but Ter'angreal is at least a WoT thing. Other things in the game don't fit exactly with the way they are in the books (see anything channeler related), so this doesn't have to either.

3) Replace Talismen with Ter'angreal, but make the Ter'angreal function more like they do in WoT. Don't tie them to items, but keep the status effects.

4) Instead of talismen, add NPC channelers that will turn you items into Ter'angreal. The end results would be the same as talismen, you just wouldn't find Talismen laying around and you'd have to go somewhere specific to upgrade your items.

I'm open to other suggestions too. The more the merrier. So please please please let me know what you think.

Go Team!

Note: I'm not necessarily going to do whatever wins, though I will be influenced by the polls result. Also, this change won't happen in V6 reguardless. Talismen will be around for at least 1 more version.

[redrum]

number 4 sounds good to me.

I might have been a little bit hasty with my comments. as i think more about it I lean towards what almodre wrote. But as long as resources are kept as item drops are right now from npcs.

[wotrombone]

I like the Idea of having items that affect my accuracy as opposed to having my bow get a weave put on it and then it is suddenly more accurate.

[arundel]

I voted other.

I like idea 4,but I was kinda thinking a power wrought blade that they dont make anymore because of the vows. But I dont like the idea that you would just buy them either.

To make it more wheel of time like you could make them like a quest (possibly add gold to high end quests) . You get your quests based off of being a dark friend or fanatic. (I was thinking the name fanatic should too...fanaticy I digress) shayoul goul for DF possibly white tower as well, black tower for DF/Fantaics and maybe camlyn for fanatics and possibly the kin for fanatics as well.

I think turning talismans into power wrought items might be the best way especially if you want to use terangreal later, would cut confusion and work later changing things over and explaining a new system of terangreal not being talismans anymore

[almordre]

Fourth option above is the closest to what I see, but having the items 'become' ter'angreal really doesn't fit, as the items are still just weapons, only slightly stronger. So, I went with 'other':

Ter'angreal are items that perform a specific function, rather than augmenting other items, so calling the current talis 'ter'angreal' really doesn't fit. In the books, there are items - like the occasional heron-mark sword - that were 'made' with the One Power. So, there is precedent for regular items to be modified with the One Power. The closest fit I can imagine is one where you visit/find a channeler who upgrades the items for you - applying weaves that strengthen/augment the gear (there was a reference to 'aligning' the metal to making a power-wrought weapon).

It would greatly alter gameplay, though, if all it took to get a certain upgrade was to visit a shop and buy it - would be right back to the shop tali purchasing craze, then. Best compromise I can see is this: What if, instead of talis, you found 'Materials' that a town-based channeler or craftsman (like Wise Women) could use to strengthen your gear. Certain Materials could be used to add different stat boosts to things - thinking along the line of different metals or woods, maybe other things. Example - Oak could add to block stats, aluminum could add to first strike, titanium to speed, etc. (At work, so can't really come up with a GOOD list right now, but you get the idea.) I can see a channeler that's strong in earth or fire being able to take a bar of steel and meld it into an existing sword to strengthen it, for example. There's never been any great detail of chemistry/minerals mentioned in the series (although Mat has approached with gunpowder), but the various craftsmen (smiths, etc) mentioned in passing along the way could provide a tie-in for it.

Biggest challenge I see with this approach would be coming up with the new naming system, but I'd approach it as only cooking up the material names - having larger amounts of them found at higher levels, and these larger 'chunks' used to add more of the related stat to the gear. The higher-end talis could be replicated by 'alloys' of pre-combined materials, instead of the raw materials that add single stats. I'd actually stick with the current, cool names for the final gear - following above example, the biggest available chunk of aluminum would still result in a "Swift" item - just be a bit of a learning curve for players to keep up with which materials result in which upgrades, so we'd know what materials to keep and what to drop when gathering.


(should I be worried that this sounds somewhat related to 'resource gathering', as I read back over it ? )


*update* - the whole 'vow' thing arundel mentions is a potential hiccup for story purity, but that oath is made only by Aes Sedai. We have plenty of non-oath'd channelers wandering around these days, and then, the Dragon is reborn, and he breaks all oaths/promises/contracts/crockery/etc.

[wotrombone]

I like the idea of materials! another thing I was think about is that maybe, we could still find things like talisman, but they were vouchers or something scattered by various NPCs or something. So once you found a voucher, you could go to the person who made the voucher and redeem it for a weave being placed on the item.

[Tim]

Yeah, the materials idea does sound pretty reminiscent of the resource gathering days, but that's not really a bad thing. Resource gathering itself wasn't the issue. The issues were the flaws in the system that were exploited. And the fact that it left nothing to really spend money on.

I will say that I bet you'll like this idea even more after tomorrow's countdown post. Either that, or you'll run screaming, "NO!!! IT WILL BE EXACTLY LIKE RESOURCE GATHERING NOW! ARRGHH!!" Just because of this suggestion, I'm gonna change what my example is. You'll see what I mean... ;D

[almordre]

speaking of money - the local channelers/craftsmen would, of course, charge for their services, in proportion to the complexity of the work

[King Richard]

Yeah, but would channelers take cash for that kind of thing Kev? Or would they want part of my soul instead?

I do like the idea though. It wouldn't be too much like resource gathering, if you were just finding the stuff in NPCs instead of talis. If they functioned just like talis, minus the whole going to town to have them forged part.

I'll wait for this bombshell Tim's gonna drop tomorrow before I speak more though.

[arundel]

As far as the vows are concerned, there are Black sisters in the white tower, that would be an option for DF charr to go to tar vallon and get a weapon up graded. The black tower has both good and evil, camlyn maybe just good, they got some kin there maybe have a rural town have a large concentration on kin somewhere for good, shayoul goul (sp?) evil.

I was also thinking of the resource gathering...dont like the idea too much...But remember when whats her face was tryn to make the stone ring terangreal? the colors mattered and she couldn't figure out why. You could make that part of the making terangreal system later in game. Where you need the right materials and color? maybe the right balance of materials.

oh and if shadar logath (sp?) is still around, that would be an interesting place to get a weapon from...like an of madness talisman =p

Instead of 5 iron and 5 tin it would need 2 tin and 8 iron...just random ideas of metal and what not but you get the idea.