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Post by kaldar on May 17, 2017 8:02:40 GMT -6
Instead of just guessing people's motivations I thought I would give people a chance to react for themselves. What factors make you want to quit playing, whether you actually do quit or not? Also, what might correct that going forward.
What leads me to ask these questions is that whether or not they return .... half the players of the age have gone absent for at least a week. Seitarran, Cast, Magic Hour, Vallano .... hell that represents half the top 30 accounts in the game.
For me the list is this :
1) Allowing people to play up to 6 accounts creates the dilemma between wanting to play a manageable level of characters myself (1-2) and wanting to compete at a clan level against those who might actually choose to tirelessly run turns on 6 turns. At first glance this seems purely an instanct of personal choice. However, most all the people that play more than 3 accounts basically use the other accounts as Ji monkeys. I'm pretty sure Bear is the only one I have seen actually use his accounts for more than that and honestly it amazes me he is able to.
2) The game doesn't lend itself to social interaction. First, the clan chat doesn't alert anyone when a new message is posted, and since cometimes people don't post for days at a time, most of the time people don't think to even check. Also, there isn't really any "scarcity" in the game to cause interaction. I can buy whatever I need if I find the right shop, I can generally save up whatever TAs I need to make the items I want, or I can just put out a quest for something I need. There is little to no actual team interaction, so it starts to feel like a game of solitaire.
3) ... money. money is basically useless in the game. The most expensive item goes for around 5 gold and really if I go through the whole age I might need to buy 7 or 8 items for personal use. Or .... I can just find a quest that gives out that type of item and complete it and get the item for free. Estate building is mostly just for a place to dump your money you don't want stolen, rather than an actual age defining improvement for you. Hell ... half the items you upgrade in the estate don't even work as advertised and nobody bothers even fixing them. Aside from giving money to the empire so they can buy increasingly expensive upgrades for clan bonus, you could pretty much go through the game successfully with under 500 gold total which you could get simply from selling item drops for half price.
4) Balance. There should be some sort of mechanism for balancing the sides of light and shadow. When the sides are competitive it is fun, when the sides are out of balance, it is not. This age, I think it is possible half the people quit simply because there was no competition, no social interaction, and therefore really no point to continue ....
Those are my thoughts, what are yours ?
I realize I didn't offer much in the way of solutions. I will think on that part and respond later.
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Post by Jenlyn on May 17, 2017 11:05:14 GMT -6
Money was a bigger problem before the estates. They are indeed just a place to dump your gold, but it really served no purpose at all before them. At least now, it buys you some extra storage and it gives you an incentive to protect that wilderness area against mega hordes in the Last Battle. It is probably not enough, but it's better than nothing. Money still serves little purpose, though. It is tight for the first few levels while trying to get businesses and a mount and whatnot, but after you start collecting from your businesses and you have a horse and all, it stops being much of an issue, and later, the main issue is finding something to do with it other than donating it to PvP bullies.
Social interaction would be a big help. Most of the attraction of the game when I first started was that it was like a big chatroom in which I could attack the other chatters, although the chat client was the same. There was also market sniping though, and that was fun.
I really feel like running a bunch of characters is a personal choice. I've run no more than 2 for years now, no matter what the clan is facing. Last age is the first time I've had 3 in like forever, and I only had 3 at the very end, and only because you insisted over and over again, and I would rather be a good team player than the one guy with his middle finger up while the rest of the clan does their best. If everyone else wasn't running a bunch of alts too, I would not have made more than Moridin, as he was plenty of account to keep me occupied.
Balance and social interaction are probably the biggest things. When I've had the most fun is when I was taking part in fun conversations. Even if the age itself kind of sucked, I remember it as a good age because of chat. A few rounds ago, I thought the age itself was kind of dull, but I had a lot of great PMs with Dahl about the Malazan series, so I remember that age as a fun one. Last age3 was fun because the clan was somewhat active in chat, but not as much as I would have liked. This age blows, even though Windancer returned and Fearless is actually playing, because there isn't much to talk about except a shop upgrade somewhere or something.
Scarcity would be a good thing for the game. The best part of the Breaking was when Celtia took over the market and tried to strangle all the other clans economically. There is rarity in this game, like trying to get that special TA, and when you find it, it's atttached to an "of the Forest" or some such nonsense, but that's not really the same, as you are probably doing okay without that TA and only want it in the pursuit of build perfection, which is sort of a first-world problem, like all ennui is...
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Post by kaldar on May 17, 2017 12:24:03 GMT -6
Good feedback Jenlyn, thank you
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Post by pmattheus on May 17, 2017 16:40:21 GMT -6
I only started a short while ago, but I can already tell the lack of social interaction is the biggest drawback for me. I am a very social creature, as my unfortunate coworkers could tell you, so... yeah, that.
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Post by Seitaarin on May 18, 2017 3:28:44 GMT -6
I'm not a social butterfly ... I'll chat from time to time but I'm solidly introverted so social interaction doesn't feed my interest, it's just something that's there to do from time to time. Estates play a strategic role in the ji battles in cities, in addition to being a cash sink. No problems there at all from my POV. Game balance in game is the most important factor I think. Too much either way makes the game either boring or frustrating or both. Thus why I was deep on the way towards backstabbing the forsaken in my own little way, as you'd probably figured I like playing the side that is in trouble, but this age is ridiculous and I don't particularly care to waste any more time with it. 6 characters IS too many ... but only when there are only 2 factions. Having 3/4 of the game's population contained within 2 clans makes for a REALLY uninteresting and static landscape. There's no incentive for people to make their own clans, no inhibiting factors for expansion. Maybe something like nominating a capital city, and then all other cities have a penalty to ji gain based on # of steps away from a controlled city or some such, which would force clans to expand in a bubble to simulate logistics rather than just being able to ji bomb at will. Maybe not quite right, but something along those lines might help a little. Still doesn't provide incentive for there being more clans to actually fight over different territories, but it could be a start. A global bonus, or a global increase in clan member cap based on number of clans or some sort of ji calculation, dunno. Character balance - taint needed work, it did. It's always been super strong on day 1 and petered off fairly quickly. However ... making it completely uncompetitively good as it is right now not only makes for uninteresting gameplay when playing a tainter, I imagine it makes for ridiculously frustrating to near heartbreaking when sitting on the opposite side to it. Shadow didn't just dominate the map, the numbers show an absolute, demoralising bias. That's not cool.
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Post by kaldar on May 18, 2017 6:12:46 GMT -6
If it makes you feel any better Seitarran, you pretty much did screw the Forsaken .... well, you along with the other 60% of the player base that quit.
I've seen characters abandoned before but never anything quite like this. I counted it up and we now have 10 active accounts in The Forsaken out of a clan of 27 characters.
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Post by Seitaarin on May 18, 2017 8:04:51 GMT -6
Nyeh, I'm still about, just not interested in actually putting any effort whatsoever into being competitive. Turns have capped out, doesn't bother me, I'll turn dump one day and then they'll cap out again. There's just no incentive to be competitive right now
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Post by Jenlyn on May 18, 2017 9:46:29 GMT -6
I like the idea of a clan starting at a capitol city and then having to expand from there, or at least having to expand to neighboring cities from wherever they are. That would probably cause a complete overhaul of how cities are taken and held though, maybe even eliminating the whole Ji system that he has spent so much time on.
Perhaps another alternative would be having a cost associated with cities, even if it's forced upgrades. Clans that take over a dozen cities rarely upgrade them all. If people really lived there, they'd be mad because the roads weren't paved and the garbage trucks weren't coming around emptying the trash cans. They'd revolt. This might at least keep clans from biting off more than they could chew, and it would allow smaller clans to control cities without needing the blessing of larger clans.
I've played a lot of times, in both Light and Shadow clans, where little clans took a city from us that we weren't even bothering with, and we promptly took it back from them because how dare they? I don't think that's good for the game, because it demoralizes that little clan, and the city remains fallow because we aren't going to upgrade it. I think using the resources from the estates to upgrade cities is a good thing, but maybe it needs to go further, go in a direction that forces you to upgrade or else face some kind of penalty.
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Post by Seitaarin on May 18, 2017 17:24:59 GMT -6
Degrading ji, with a rate that increases based on the number of cities controlled? Or with a rate that increases based on how high ji is in the city, so that in order to restock the biggest items in the marketplace, you need to constantly keep gaining ji? Then have quest rewards only go to the second highest items, so that it makes city markets the real deal. Degradation could be called the Game of Houses, simulating NPC opposition to any ruling faction.
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Post by Jenlyn on May 18, 2017 18:26:18 GMT -6
That might work
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Post by Seitaarin on May 18, 2017 20:19:45 GMT -6
This could be taking things too far, but I'll voice the idea anyway just for the sake of throwing ideas around ... Make all clans 'NPC' clans to start with, each city being a capital city for a clan ... internal elections are held every x days, or every time the first person selects a new class at lvl 20, 40 etc, or whenever the wind changes direction over the cliffs of dover, or whenever, that determine the leader of the clan which allows spending the bank, upgrades etc. City ji recalculates hourly based on participation of any given faction, thus if a city is conquered and then completely neglected by all, it naturally reverts back to it's default control through both/either ji degradation due to neglect by the conqueror, or ji gain by the natural population supporting the locals against the neglectful tyranny/dogooderishness of the invaders. Thus each city would have a natural resting point for it's ji, perhaps somewhere in the realms of tier 3 market items and the first cloak, which would naturally progress to over the first week or 2, bringing it into line with the first elections for players to start implementing local market choices, etc. It's not a complete system, but it would provide many options for smaller factions to be able to actually gain a foothold and compete. For a clan to be able to control the entire map would take very considerable ongoing management globally, rather than just crush the spirit of the largest opponents and reap all of the rewards.
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Post by kaldar on May 19, 2017 11:40:12 GMT -6
It is just my opinion, but I don't see the city domination method currently in place as a major issue of contention. I mean, honestly I was never thrilled with it, because as I saw last age, generally speaking the clan with the most activity conquers. In a system defined solely on attack turns, the clan who uses the most attack turns, wins.
I would suggest for the social aspect of the game : 1) On the clan tab place an alert similar to the other alerts already in place for skills, achievements, etc ... when someone posts in clan chat, send an alert to all clan members until they click on the clan chat to view the messages.
This would result in actually being able to get the attention of someone you see online, rather than having to message them directly saying "hey you, check clan chat"
2) Cut number of allowable players down to 2. I don't see many, if anyone that is going to quit playing because you say they can only play 2, but I see a ton of people burning themselves out trying to play 3,4, or 6 ....
3) Light offices should probably support/assist defenses at a greater rate than the shadow offices destroy them. Because the horde sizes are solely determined by player base and stage of the age, it makes sense that the light should be able to build up defenses a bit more easily than the shadow can tear them down. (Maybe 20% better at building than shadow is at destroying?)
4) I would suggest that we actually utilize the elements being tossed around with ships and such to make the items in the shops. In order to stock 10 of a level 3 sword requires X of this and Y of that and Z of such ....
It seems more realistic that there are limited resources to make stuff with. This would cause players to actually work to mine items from their estates, move stuff from one city to another, and even use shipping some to move much needed resources.
5) I like Seitaaran's idea that quests stop giving rewards at the 2nd from best item. Make the best item only available in the shops that way people actually have to work together for a cause. This combined with the use of resources creates comrederie and teamwork.
6) I'm not sure I entirely agree with Seitaaran's assessment that taint is completely dominant this age. What I noticed last age was I would hit a tinker with the best melee equipment in the game and not leave a scratch most the time ... battles with endings like my health 0, their health 700.
This age, so far at least, melee fighters are still impacting tainters. Do tainters have an advantage, sure , but then again tinkers had significant advantage last age too .... I think it is still early to see how these builds work out in 10-20 levels.
Although, honestly, there isn't much dueling competition to try the builds against, especially since you quit playing and you had the most diverse bunch of duelers around
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Post by Seitaarin on May 19, 2017 18:55:46 GMT -6
all reasonable, but duel comparisons are not possible between taint and tinkers for the simple fact that tainters have always traditionally been very dominant in the level 1-25/30 bracket, and tinkers doesn't make an appearance until 60+, and doesn't become a dominant factor in gear for some levels after that once it has a few more drops around the place to become somewhat common. The taint dominance this age not only extended well beyond previous ages, it was even more of a non-competition. It's not that melee builds didn't have much of a chance, they had absolutely zero chance, and the duel numbers were ridiculously disproportionate. 98% Success rate on duel attacks, with the only loss the odd 50/50 vs a similar build when you get bored is not healthy for the game population.
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Post by Jenlyn on May 19, 2017 19:42:29 GMT -6
I have a poison build that loses to tainters, too. Before you say that I just suck at dueling, that build held its own with Tim's accounts in the big clan battle.
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Post by Tim on May 19, 2017 22:17:02 GMT -6
I have a poison build that loses to tainters, too. Before you say that I just suck at dueling, that build held its own with Tim's accounts in the big clan battle. You're confusing me with a good duelist. I'll be the first to admit I'm not the hardest target. I know what I'm doing, but don't always take the time to fine tune things. Won't say I suck, but I wouldn't use my characters as a benchmark. (I'll go back to being quite for now. You guys are giving great feedback and good ideas. Don't want to derail this conversation by butting in quite yet. I am reading this though, before you think I'm ignoring it.)
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