CDV17: Ter'angreal tweak

[Tim]

Sorry this is late. Wanted to get this one out, but hadn't finished going through the list.

• I beefed up the Accuracy and Dodge ter'angreal to make them more in line with the other stats.
• The both poison and taint ones I strengthened too.
• Speed and Wound ter'angreal I changed the negatives from -5% damage to -2 accuracy and dodge respectively
• Made minor balancing tweaks to some of the stronger ter'angreal
• Tinkers... I changed the penalty to have accuracy too. Weakened health gain some. Also dropped the penalties some in general, which means it will be more expensive to use.
• Made Mercenaries more of a damage based counterpart to Tinkers, though had to keep some Luck to fit the name

This may not be all, but it's a good start

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POISON AND TAINT

*of Disease: +3 poison, +2 taint
*Stained: +2 poison, +3 taint
*of Rot: +5 poison, +3 taint
*Foul: +3 poison, +5 taint
*of Plague: +7 poison, +4 taint
*Deadly: +4 poison, +7 taint


SPEED

*Small: +1 speed, -2 accuracy
of Steeds: +1 speed
Fast: +2 speed
*of Razors: +2 speed, -2 accuracy
*Rapid: +3 speed, -2 accuracy
of Foxes: +3 speed

WOUND

*Cruel: +1 wound, -2 dodge
of The Ruthless: +1 wound
*of The Ferocious: +2 wound, -2 dodge
Sadistic: +2 wound,
*Crippling: +3 wound, -2 dodge
of Snakes: +3 wound


ACCURACY

*Trusty: +2 accuracy
*of Reliability: +4 accuracy
*Faithful: +6 accuracy
*of Precision: +8 accuracy
*Legendary: +10 accuracy
*of Marksmen: +12 accuracy

DODGE

*of Shadows: +2 dodge
*Deflecting: +4 dodge
*of Evasion: +6 dodge
*Stealthy: +8 dodge
*of Night: +10 dodge
*Warded: +12 dodge

OTHER

*Heroic: +12% defense, +4% health gain, +4 first strike
*Villanous: +12% damage, +4 poison, +4 stun

*of The Light: +5~10 block, +10% defense, +8% health gain
*of The Shadow: +5~10 damage, +10% damage, +5 taint

*Mercenaries: +5 luck, +10 accuracy, +2 wound, -10% defense, -3 dodge
*of Tinkers: +10% health gain, +5 dodge, +2 speed, -10% damage, -3 accuracy
*Jeweled: +18 luck, -6% damage, -6% defense

[King Richard]

Dat Marksmen!!!

[kaldar]

Interesting. .... ... but what the heck will I be able to throw away now ?!?! I already had inventory issues last age !

[kaldar]

One serious question .... can we please have "of the Dragon" back as a quality TA ? Historically in this game, and thematically in the WoT series, it just seems sad to not have it anymore. It used to be the best TA in the game and now for it to be completely absent ....

If it is a matter of figuring out the right stats for it to have so maybe it can't make it in this age, I understand. But can we acknowledge that we need it back at least ?

[gerdonat]

A few questions, why mixed taint/poison tas give less bonus than pure tas? if i think mixed is better, i just get toxic of sayol ghul, and get +12/+12, the poison and taint ta, will be irrelevant till they give more total bonus like +6/+8 on highest tier...

So mixed tas should be for people that want a mixed strategy, and pure tas for people that want to specialize, right now mixed has no niche.

Why "of the shadow" got nerfed from 10 poison to 5 taint? it should be at least 8... its really hard to get taint for a damage build, so its nice that "of the shadow" changed from poison to taint, but taking out 5 at the same time seems a lot, will this make of the shadow cheapier at least?

[Seitaarin]

of the shadow was the highest value TA by stat weight, looks to me that's a balancing. Good change. And the right stat change as well, poison to taint.

[Seitaarin]

And taint can not be reduced, it's purely additive, which adds to it's value as well somewhat. Given the nerf to poison secondaries, and the fact that this helps stack health gain slice on a high value damage TA I think it's a good evaluation, and not as much of a reduction as first glance might suggest.

[gerdonat]

With all the announced changes, I still dont see a path for a damage build to beat a poison/taint/defense build anyway, so, i see damage builds as horde beaters really, in that sense, i would rather have 10 poison to beat a horde, rather than 5 taint.

[Seitaarin]

youre a hard fellow to please ... the highest taint suffix is +12 standalone ... this TA has a 2x damage add plus some taint and is still the highest weighted TA in the game even with the reductions and you're still not happy with it

[kaldar]

I think Ger's point is that melee damage proved to be underwhelming last age in duels especially, and 5 taint compared to 10 poison, for a melee build, is a downgrade. In addition to the extra 5 damage of direct damage there are also the secondary poison effects that taint does not have, to consider.

Also, there are very few melee TAs to even consider. But all in all, if your final melee build were to use 3 of the Shadow , then now you would be getting 15 taint instead of 30 poison. Even with the downgraded secondary effect of poison, that is 10% less damage on a single stack of poison , or 20-30 less damage. So I don't think there is any argument that the change to of the Shadow is a downgrade for no apparent reason. If you want to put 5 taint on it, then put 5 taint and 5 poison.

[Seitaarin]

Taint stacks, never reduces ... taint ignores health gain ... Taint is found on few melee friendly TAs to gain health gain pen ... again, of the shadow is still the highest stat weighted TA in the game. Poison has the POTENTIAL to do more damage, but the reality is that it won't on a melee that is unable to gain the turn control that a poison stacker requires for poison to be fully effective. The more you argue the more it solidifies my agreement with the change tbh. That TA does not need more stats, it should not have had the amount of stats on it that it had in the first place.

[Seitaarin]

You like math, work out the damage potential difference of a 5 taint that goes 4/12 against a poisoner vs the damage potential of poison vs that same character. Poison only ramps effectively when you have higher speed than your opponent. Taint scales optimally (more or less) when speed is roughly equivalent, but doesn't have the stupidly steep falloff that poison has when the turn order is reversed. So yeah, 5 taint isn't much behind 10 poison on a slower (melee) build in the first instance, add the fact that it ignores health gain and you are pretty close if not slightly ahead.

[kaldar]

I think you are considering it from a dueling perspective. We have already acknowledged that we don't think there exists a workable melee dueling build anymore. We are talking about horde bashing mainly.

If the answer is, "I felt that several TAs were overpowered, so I'm scaling them all back some" , then I can respect that.

[Seitaarin]

Regadless of the arena, that's how those stats work. Why on earth would you in one age rail against the health gain system and how it's not friendly to melees, and then when hg penetration was added to a melee TA (again, the highest stat TA in the game) argue that the old stat was better?!? You're crazy, and I kind of wouldn't actually mind Tim putting it back to where it was just to spite your crazy arguments, but it's better this way for you, you just refuse to see that it's not actually much of a nerf, despite it being less stats on paper. Do I really have to point out that 10 poison = 2.5 poison at endgame?

[Seitaarin]

Oh and don't forget that Taint applies on the enemy's turn, which directly mitigates last hit health gain.