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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 1:25:59 GMT -6
The merchant profession appears to be out of line with the rest of the money earning professions - with an 80/20 split of the merchant funds being deposited directly to the bank/player, this is able to be used to reduce a player's banking efficiency from the minimum city building upgrade of 10% down to a measly 2% when used in a coordinated fashion with clan members. Consequently this artificially inflates a net worth title, but that's really neither here nor there.
All other professions require a collection of some sort, be it direct business profits, or at quest handin, with 100% of the business value being made to conform to standard banking practices, however with merchants this is not the case.
The most appropriate fix for this seems to me to be to have these merchant stalls simply act as any other business, whereby the full value of the funds require collection by the player, and then have to be handled as a standard banking transaction thereafter. Additionally, perhaps a market tax rate could be introduced, starting at say 20% and then a business upgrade could reduce this value.
Alternatively, by current game standards, base market businesses could begin with a 100/0 split, with upgrades that could bring it down to 50/50. I use 50/50 as an example value due to the fact that game mechanics already allow for banking efficiency to be reduced from 20% down to 10%, so a 50% reduction based on upgrade seems appropriate.
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Post by Tim on Dec 6, 2016 10:34:07 GMT -6
So I'm only speculating here, but I'm guessing this discussion at least partially is stemming from Kaldar's latest gains in net worth. I don't KNOW what he's doing, but he can clarify if he chooses. In theory, one could buy items from the shop with money that can't be banked, then place them on the market at a slight discount to bank extra coin. Used effectively, yes, this could result in ~98% of money being banked AND boost business earnings from the market sales. Both of these in effect will raise net worth sharply. Before I go on, let me also state this: as long as the items are being put on the market for a fair price and the sale of said items is benefiting the buyers and not just the seller, I see this as perfectly legal within the rules of the game. As long as the seller's clan mates aren't buying the items JUST to help the seller, but they also receive a benefit like getting the items at a slight discount, no rules are being broken. As some would say: It's there and available for anyone to use the same way, so players can adapt accordingly. That said, yes the way things currently are are unbalanced and DO need some tweaking for next age. Being able to bank almost all of your gold (in theory, you could go beyond 98% as the remaining 2% can get filtered through the market too) is not the intention here. The reason for the 80/20 split instead of 0/100 like other businesses is that with other businesses, you control when you claim the money and it shows up in your pocket. With market, the coin shows up as soon as the someone buys the item. That's intentional as in the past players abused the market to use it as a second bank: selling items to friends for high prices but not claiming the coin and just hiding it away until needed. It's not fair for an item you sell on the market while you're offline to put the coin in your pocket, only for it to all get stolen while you're away. The problem is that even if there's ANY percentage of coin from the market that goes to straight to the bank, with enough items sold through the market you can end up banking almost all of it. Really, with estate bonuses cutting the price of items in shops, you can buy items from the shop and sell them at what's a slight increase for you, but still cheaper than other players can buy from the shop without those bonuses, so you'll also be earning a little MORE coin while banking extra. But even if I put it so only 10% of the money went straight to the bank, you could eventually bank most of your coin. So I guess my points are: - Yay! The market is actually being used in a useful way! This is good and I'd like to encouraged! - The way markets can currently be used to bank nearly all of your coin is bad and should be changed for next age. - Having market earnings go straight to pocket is unfair due to it then being available to be stolen (not ALL market sales are just to stash unbankable coin) - Having market earnings wait in the market to be collected can be abused. I'm open to suggestions on ways to improve this fairly.
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Post by kaldar on Dec 6, 2016 17:17:00 GMT -6
Well ... that didn't take long ! Don't worry, KR. I know you didn't send the bulldog after me. He is already on me from another subject I appreciate the simple explanation for what I am doing with the market, although in practice it is not that simple at all. I'd rather not go into too much detail as to my strategy with this until the age ends as KR is already proving a handful to keep up with. And in all fairness, I first noticed KR using this practice with Silver Bows and just expanded upon it. Suffice it to say, I believe people are buying my wares for item quests mainly, for reasons of a combination of scarcity in the world and my prices are also discounted from full value. I sell items worth 5.33 for 4.99 am I outa my mind ? I would also say the drawback to the strategy is need to have inventory on hand , put points into the market, and be around to restock when items are purchased.
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Post by King Richard on Dec 6, 2016 17:19:43 GMT -6
So I'm only speculating here, but I'm guessing this discussion at least partially is stemming from Kaldar's latest gains in net worth. I don't KNOW what he's doing, but he can clarify if he chooses. In full disclosure, yes, I think that's what prompted this. I told Seitaarin last night that I didn't think I could keep up with Kaldar's banking and business earnings because he's got a way cooler market money laundering machine than I do. That led to a discussion of how the market actually works, which let to this. I've always used markets the same way too. Just never on this scale. It always seemed like a wasted profession point to invest in it further, since people normally don't use the market much. Now it looks like it could be even more lucrative than even Shipping if there are buyers. I'm going to have to rethink my strategy. I unfortunately don't have any suggestions either, so I'm no help.
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Post by kaldar on Dec 6, 2016 17:21:43 GMT -6
oh .. one more thing. Is it really worth overhauling a mechanism being used for effectively building net worth when there have proven to be very few individuals in the past ages interested in putting forth the extreme effort to do so? And yes ... KR can attest to the fact that it does take extreme effort to do well.
I could also make the argument that it is unfair that people that don't care about dueling or fighting anyone and just making money, and can just put all their profession points to use building businesses get extra advantage because of the way net worth is calculated.
For example, I make 100 gold profit in my business I get the 100 gold and I get 50 gold added to my business worth. Effectively, I get 1.5 times my income from the businesses. All other forms of income received have to be invested in something or deposited and it is very difficult to deposit as the age goes on.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 17:22:17 GMT -6
I guess the real issue is that it doesn't put money in hand like every other business collection. Not sure about rules being broken or whatnot, it looks like items are just being bought and sold on the market? My problem is the money going straight to the bank without any handling, without being filtered through the world or through normal banking rules that every other business cash collection adheres to. I wouldn't have thought that leaving the cash in the stall to be collected could be abused, I mean it still has to be banked as per normal upon collection right? And new items can't be posted until the sold slot is cleared? I guess it could wait to be collected, with a mail sent to the person that an item has been sold, and that moneyhandlers will take a tax cut every x hours until collection is made ... with that cut can be reduced by upgrading the business. Taxes for one time market users won't be such an issue, but for people using the market rigorously then paying to reduce the tax could be beneficial in the long run. I don't know, I just don't like autobank Financials is definitely not my strong suit
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Post by kaldar on Dec 6, 2016 17:26:45 GMT -6
It could be abused by collecting all the stalls at the same time you collect your other businesses. In essence giving you access to 100 gold or more whenever you find it convenient. Or , let's say I need 10 gold for something ... go sell a stall, get what I want , put another item for sale .... that is even worse because now I have an infinite supply of gold on hand whenever I want !
Also, KR already acknowledged he was aware of the tactic and I just expanded upon it .... and as I said, with a title so few care about, what is the issue really? Money has no worth in the game aside from bragging rights
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Post by King Richard on Dec 6, 2016 17:32:58 GMT -6
Pshh. No worth. No worth he says. All the hours I've spent making money in this game, and he says it's of no worth. Now that Tim and Kaldar have pointed it out, yes, I do believe I could exploit a collect button. It'd be just like any other business run. I'd do my quests, business including my markets all at once, and then bank as much as I could. You'd still have to catch me in the same 15mins during the run for a chance to steal anything. Or using as a smaller bank account would work too. If I can't buy herbs, collect on a market and buy what I need without using my real bank.
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Post by kaldar on Dec 6, 2016 17:39:36 GMT -6
I did say ... except for bragging rights !!
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Post by Tim on Dec 6, 2016 17:40:51 GMT -6
I agree it's not a huge issue. Not trying to jump on this ahead of the dueling thread. This one's just easier to respond to since it's less critical and takes less thought. (and less combative so far ). Plus I'm still made that my hour-long post write-up in the other thread I made got eaten by the internet. I see your point about it still being difficult to manage and again, not accusing anyone of abusing anything. Really, I just hadn't thought of using the market to bank extra coin beyond the 90%. So kudos to both of you for outsmarting me. I don't like the banking beyond 90% and ideally would like to squash that, but perhaps I am overreacting/over simplifying things. Like I said: if you guys have a found a way to make the market useful and breathe some life into others using it, I'm all for it. Let me think on this some more. Maybe I'll tweak things a bit or perhaps I'll just leave it be. Also, it's good when someone makes KR sweat about his titles.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 17:43:39 GMT -6
But if you collect it when you collect your other businesses isn't that just another business cash collection? It might be more value than other businesses, but is that a problem? and do you not already have gold on hand when you want in your bank? If the cash sitting in there is such an issue, then maybe the x hour tax is not a terrible policing mechanism? The issue is that as many folks find preying upon cashed up business owners a fun pastime as those that like to count their coin, and when money is allowed to bypass the world and go straight into the bank, we feel cheated of our opportunity to take our cut of said coin
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Post by kaldar on Dec 6, 2016 17:48:41 GMT -6
How many people other than the Forsaken even leave more than 1 lousy gold out ? People hide their money in all sorts of ways. I had to get creative and really work to even come close to keeping up with KR's pace ... and I want to know how KR is keeping such a tight grip on his people that I see hardly any enemy sales on my market And what are we talking about here ? Maybe 100 gold every 3 days , that instead of buying a worthless estate upgrade and getting 50 gold credit toward my net worth, I'm wheelin and dealin to try and turn it into closer to 100 net worth ?
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Post by King Richard on Dec 6, 2016 17:50:37 GMT -6
I do agree with Sietaarin that it could be exploited to the max some day. The banking beyond 90%, as well as the gray area that could be walked by telling/asking clan mates and allies to buy them. At what point does it turn from simple advertising your wares to "Psst, help me beat this guy in Net worth by sending me your extra cash!" Naturally, Tim would be able to look and see who's buying and what they did with the items, and would be able to determine if they are doing that, it still concerns me a bit.
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Post by Tim on Dec 6, 2016 17:51:47 GMT -6
So what was happening in the past was players would bank what they could, then all they would make a trade with a friend to send all their remaining coin to them (let's say 50g). They then put a pair of wool pants on the market for 50g and their friend buys them with the money. So the end result was the player had 90% of their coin in the bank and the other 10% sitting on an item in the market waiting to be collected and 0 gold in their pocket. They then leave the coin in the market until they are ready to bank or buy something and only have any coin out when they are online doing things and choose to.
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Post by King Richard on Dec 6, 2016 17:55:26 GMT -6
Wow, you guys must type and think faster than I do. I started my response before Tim's second response and now there's two others to look at. And uh, as far as my clan goes, you advertised them in TAR, so I told them they were yours and they chose not to support your business. Don't feel bad. They don't support mine either.
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