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Post by kaldar on Dec 6, 2016 21:13:47 GMT -6
Not looking forward to dealing with Seitaaran's defense, dodge, speed, taint build next age .... anyway, we still have a month or so to discuss and come up with ideas.
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Post by Jenlyn on Dec 6, 2016 21:43:33 GMT -6
I am! I think it would be awesome if you both came back next round.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 21:54:06 GMT -6
making health gain 50-100 at max will more or less leave it where it is now, sort of ... would require building a bit more into your items, and that would be without the melee defense bonus too I guess, so it's a slight point of difference. But RNG, ugh. I would say be very cautious about making taint HG immune in tota, that's a very big step, especially considering it's already dodge immune - that's going to pigeonhole every single player into using luck just to mitigate taint damage to some extent.
Speaking of luck, what's the theory behind making it only half effective for the attacking player compared to the defending player?
Speed ... the closer the turn control becomes to being uncontrolled, or turn-for-turn, the less build variation will be seen. As speed decreases, you will see a direct and steep increase in the potential duel damage output of melee builds. The only reason special damage builds are viable is because melee damage has to sacrifice some itemisation to break turn control - as soon as that is no longer the case, build variety will dry up completely. Duels will then turn into who manages their first strike best, and can win in 2 hits. Not even an OP taint stat will be able to compete with that in any way.
Right now a speed poison build is only strong against a melee build in duelling, that is all. Points in CBs and LB are crap, as you say it does joke damage to hordes/armies - because you have to sacrifice damage to make it work in that way. Sure anyone can build a +150 poison character, like damage, if they want to do decent(ish) damage to hordes, but melee does it better so why bother - fully built poison damage doesn't match fully built melee damage, doesn't even come close because of the nature of it's chance to hit and diminishing value calculations - and that poison build is going to also fall prey to a melee build in duels every single time for the same reason - as soon as turn control is gone, you're done. That's why you don't see it. All we see in this at the present is poisoners that are struggling to balance speed with damage output to harrass the heavy hitters of the opponents. And that's it really - pure poisoners have to sacrifice usefulness in the other phases of the game in order to excel in one, and by 'balancing' it out of the game, that simply makes melee builds the universally useful build.
I guess what I'm saying is I play this game for the option to be able to find odd builds that work in duelling. I LIKE seeing players get roided up on their damages and taking them down as much as KR likes murdering NPCs. I realise I'm just one player, but as soon as it looks to me like there is one viable option to build for duelling, I'll for sure be gone in a puff of smoke.
As far as wound goes, by itself it is less value than speed, but when taken as a function of attacker speed vs defender speed in the speed accumulation race, there is a point where taking speed away from an opponent is more valuable than adding speed to yourself. That has to do with the break points in the speed calc as to whose turn is next. But that is way too malleable already given that you can't tell your opponent's stun/wound as these are RNG based values. Not sure what to suggest here - the idea behind wound is really solid in the grand scheme, it's just not quite right. My initial thoughts go along the lines of revamping stun and wound to have a non-rng based speed reduction, and a second, rng based speed reduction, but balancing those numbers given the game's requirement for some builds needing turn control doesn't sound like much fun.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 22:02:16 GMT -6
That's not quite right there, the comparison I made to murdering NPC's. I hope the gist of my words snuck through rather than the poorly worded actual print - Every opponent is a puzzle to find the correct locking pieces to take down, which is actually nothing like mass murdering npcs ... until I find the right pieces of course
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 22:16:46 GMT -6
I also just need to add one more thing here I'm sorry ... but it's a point that's been overlooked completely. Poison and Taint damage application is RNG based. Now we've discussed luck and it's +/- to that, but when you look at how these builds perform, you see that there is a very very distinct chance of it just failing. For no good reason other than the dice say so. There's no mitigating that beyond luck stacking, which is only partially effective (mentioning half effective calc again vs player - and hell i don't even know if NPCs have luck, non-issue). Melee damage builds don't suffer this same weakness. Even on an absolute crit failure roll against a defender with perfectly stacked dodge, damage is simply reduced by a flat -100% value from the total, which means damage still leaks through ... not insignificant damage with endgame builds.
Just thought I'd point that little bit out as well, just to add fuel to the fire.
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Post by Tim on Dec 6, 2016 22:46:52 GMT -6
Dang it! I had the randomness of Poison and Taint in my first draft of the post that I lost. It's a strong point and I'm glad you brought it up.
Another thing I had was that my goal with the battle system is to have as many viable builds as possible. Right now there are probably 3-4 different setups that work. I'd love to double that or more.
The reasoning for luck being more effective as for the defender than the attacker for poison and taint is to encourage non-poison taint builds to use it more as defense. If it was even, my guess is luck would simply be used by those with poison taint builds. Or at least more so to the point that other builds would have to dedicate large amounts of their points to first counter the other player's luck before they have any real effect. This way it's easier for other builds to add SOME luck to their build as a counter, without completely mucking with their build.
As for taint countering health gain, I worry about it making Taint too strong as well. It definitely will take some testing and playing with. You know me. I don't make big changes or take any tweaks to the battle system lightly.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 22:58:58 GMT -6
I am really hoping today's duelling is showing some people how different builds interact a bit better. Nobody can defend against every build, no matter how many tinkers they have. If I'm built to defend Cast/Faile then Ger gets to take his shot, mostly successfully. And vice versa. This is what I was talking about earlier in saying offering build diversity as opponents is an actual duelling strategy as well.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 6, 2016 23:06:45 GMT -6
And that sitting in your home town waiting for someone to duel you immediately puts you at a disadvantage, as the attacker can choose timing and build to suit, and using one sided data like that to form conclusions is not good science.
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Post by King Richard on Dec 7, 2016 1:48:50 GMT -6
Hmm. I’ll have to ponder these matters a great deal before I’m willing to comment. (I'll just leave this here...)
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 7, 2016 5:47:06 GMT -6
Even if it was not obvious from last night dueling, Faile is one of my chars, and I can tell you exactly how unbalanced dueling is.
I have just lost one duel vs someone that is not using my same build since I transformed her to poison/health gain/speed, of course, I did not fight my own fighters, but fought Kaldar's that are pretty similar. But not only that, I can beat all the other builds out there using half my equipment points, and not worring to rest, I don't even need to use top armors/shields, just threw of tinkers and poison on my equipment and voilá... not only that, Faile was original meant to be a Damage build, and spent over 80 skill points on skills that are totally useless now for my build.
And you know how long it took me to realize that I should change one of my chars? 5 seconds once I saw Talena asking for a Tinkers TA in a quest, when I saw the description in the wiki.
Anyway, I agree that having two opposite builds to battle the same person is the right move, and gives you a strategic advantage, thats why I kept Raist top damage while switching Faile, that does not means that one build is not far superior to the other, in order to Raist to have a shot at beating Talena, I need her to switch her equipment to fight faile/cast.
To resume, Faile has had over 99% effectivenes so far fighting chars that are not using her same strategy, she did that wasting over 80skill points, one class selection, using half her equipment points and not worring about resting, oh, and most of the time fighting on the cities were people with a clan have some extra skills from their own clan which faile does not being clanless.
So, you see Seitarin, when I was original posting this thread, was not from the "I cannot beat talena so I m going to cry" perspective, now reread all your posts were you tell me I have no experience dueling this age, and that I didnt try anything new just add more damage, while at the same time praising Faile, and tell me how you feel. Anyway, no hard feelings on my part. Just looking forward to make the game better.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 7, 2016 6:05:45 GMT -6
and you just lost a duel on Faile to a lower level ji farming alt with a damage build. So did Cast. No Tinkers there. Not much of anything there really to be honest. imgur.com/JCNw0KGso how bout dem balances and dps builds that can't beat tinkers. This thread is boring now - Congrats on knowing everything there is to know.
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 7, 2016 6:08:45 GMT -6
but props where props are due before I depart, you have been very clever on Faile, I have stated so in private chats and do not change that opinion. You're still wrong though here edit: spelling
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 7, 2016 6:37:41 GMT -6
and you just lost a duel on Faile to a lower level ji farming alt with a damage build. So did Cast. No Tinkers there. Not much of anything there really to be honest. imgur.com/JCNw0KGso how bout dem balances and dps builds that can't beat tinkers. This thread is boring now - Congrats on knowing everything there is to know. Yes, I lost a duel, the first one I lost vs other than talena/cast, cause I was equipped to fight talena, and you got 2 straight hits at the end, wich is the only counter to health gain, losing one duel in 100 is not proof that the classes are not unbalanced...
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Post by Seitaarin on Dec 7, 2016 6:57:46 GMT -6
whyfor must I be so bored as to continue this pointless line of argument ... it's my curse to not be able to let the inconsequential things just go ... From the keyboard of Kaldar: "And I also think you misunderstand Ger and myself and our argument against of Tinkers. We are not disrespecting your use of it at all. We are quite impressed at how handily you handed us our asses this age in that regards ... we simply disagree with you that it is conceivable to counter it with a damage build. And when I say a damage build, I don't mean a straight damage build. I mean any build that intends physical damage." I actually thought you might be Cast, and would come back and try and throw that in my face to prove your experience ... this was more of a surprise, and again kudos for your performance, it was spectuacular. However. I thought you might have some smart comment about the day's duels, so I took about 15 minutes to gather some items on one of my lower level farming toons and see just what you would say or do, and you dropped a bomb, cool Then I went and 1-2'd you with a damage toon that up until an hour or so ago whatever was in gear that was near on 10 levels old, had been duel bait for whoever came by and took a fancy, whatever. Your situation is actually more dire than before, it seems. With all of the experience that you have gathered using Faile, you were able to be beaten, and so was Cast, 2 paragons of the Tinkers OP community, straight up - by a toon with 15 minutes worth of thought put into it. Inconceivable. Then of course you come and make excuses for it, and dismiss it as nothing. This is why this thread is boring. You will continue to harp on your point with your blinders on until the end of days. Tim might as well lock this thread and take the information he wants from it, because neither of us can be helpful here. You are wearing blinkers and I have no patience with it.
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Post by gerdonat on Dec 7, 2016 7:20:39 GMT -6
First, cast is a different player, and has said nothing about tinkers, or commente on the forum, so leave him out. Second, one duel proofs nothing. Raistline beat talena more times than that, that does not means that talena build has not the upper hand by a lot... but take one individual duel as proof that all other arguments are wrong...
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