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Post by Tim on Jul 5, 2017 8:28:13 GMT -6
Horde health changes:
The formula to calculate the starting health of hordes is changing slightly to better take into account the levels of all players, not just the highest level player.
Horde health = ((total health of all players) x (level of highest level player)) / 20 (For reference, at the end of V17, the total health of all players (not counting Creator, DO, or GM) was 49,900.)
In addition, the Order in the target city will also affect the health of the horde. The more Order a city has in relationship to the other cities will decrease the size of the horde, while the more chaotic the city is will cause the horde size to increase. Where the city ranks by Order will affect the horde sizes as follows:
- 1st to 4rd: -50% starting horde health - 5th to 8th: -25% starting horde health - 9th to 16th: no change - 17th to 20th: -25% starting horde health - 21st to 24th: +50% starting horde health
Note: This will NOT affect the first 5 hordes of the age to allow time for changes in order to start to set in. This will also not apply to hordes in the Last Battle.
Army health changes:
A few tweaks to Army health. First, damage done to armies during hordes only decreases the armies health by 25% of the damage done instead of 50%. This should make the armies not quite as susceptible to being dropped to next to nothing.
Also, if army's size is less than 25% of the horde's health when a horde battle starts, the city will conscript the city folk to increase the army size to be 25% of the hordes health. If this happens, 250 Chaos is added to the city and the ruler's reputation in city decreases by 100. This will hopefully stop armies from being pushovers, but still make it worth it for certain clans to try to drop the armies and for rulers to try and beef them up as much as possible.
Change horde/army alignment effects:
How a player's alignment is affected from battling hordes and armies now depend on the declared alignment of the clan ruling the target city. -- If ruler is declared Light or Neutral, attacking hordes count the same as dueling lean Shadow and armies the count as lean Light. (same behavior as V17) -- If ruler is declared Shadow, attacking hordes count the same as dueling lean Light and armies the count as lean Shadow. -- All Last battle hordes still count as Light and all Last Battle armies still count as Shadow.
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Post by Jenlyn on Jul 5, 2017 10:43:45 GMT -6
I don't understand Horde mechanics well enough to weigh in on the first two points, but I really like the last change.
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Post by kaldar on Jul 5, 2017 11:52:32 GMT -6
I think the new horde health formula has a lot of merit and could turn out to be a good idea. I'm not sure about the affecting horde health based on relative order. That doesn't really make sense to me.
I may be wrong, but I think you have the alignment affects backwards ? you say ruler is lean light , hordes count as dueling lean light and armies count as dueling lean shadow, but i think it is opposite ? If you are light and you duel a light person, you move towawrds the shadow which would indicate that attacking a horde would be for the shadow side to do ... but you indicate it is same as v17 ...
Army health changes : If you are going to move the minimum to 25% horde health, why also change it from reducing by 50% to 25% ? I'm guessing this counts for megahordes as well ? So start of LB the mega horde is 500k , the army minimum would start at 125k ?
You might want to think a bit more on the horde fighting based on alignment as i'm undecided on the implementation. For example, the highest ordered city in the world gets a horde ..... the horde health is cut by 50% since it has the highest order. It is ruled by the Light. However, if the light clan that owns the city attacks the horde marching on their city their alignment will shift to the shadow ... if they don't , then the horde will destroy their biggest building.
Maybe clarify these points a bit more ?
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Post by Jenlyn on Jul 5, 2017 11:57:12 GMT -6
I understood it to mean that Shadow clans can destroy the hordes that are attacking their cities without losing alignment.
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Post by kaldar on Jul 5, 2017 12:18:53 GMT -6
Tim gets arithmetic signs mixed up sometimes when coding. Best to double check his work, and also the way he described it was opposite to that so I wanted to point it out in case he actually coded it backwards.
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Post by Tim on Jul 5, 2017 12:52:57 GMT -6
*sigh* Yes. I got the 'signs' wrong in my descriptions. What should be the only change with hordes and army alignment is when cities are ruled by Shadow clans, the alignment changes are reversed. Attacking the horde decreases alignment and attacking the army increase alignment.
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Post by kaldar on Jul 5, 2017 14:05:53 GMT -6
Can we put a scratch through the modifiers for order ranking ?
It will just suck for everyone. It will suck for shadow trying to defend their cities throughout the age, and then it will suck for the light trying to defeat big massive hordes come the last battle since the most chaotic get picked automatically to get hordes for phase 1.
And since you are putting in a floor of 25% horde strength for armies, I would leave it as 50% reduction for attacking armies.
My thoughts so far
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Post by Tim on Jul 5, 2017 21:21:50 GMT -6
The order modifiers note that they don't count during Last Battle, so no need to worry about that. As for it sucking for Shadow players, I don't think it will make THAT big a difference. I past ages, some clans would complain that the hordes are gone to fast.
The reason I added the order modifiers is that you had raised the point there are ways for players to raise/lower the army sizes but no way for players to influence horde sizes. This will make clans care about Order, other than just prepping for the LB.
Just because I put the cap on army sizes doesn't mean they need to be so easy to decimate. Cutting army strength in half every time a horde shows up is really devastating late in the game when hordes/armies are bigger and there's not really a good for ruler's to recover.
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Post by kaldar on Jul 6, 2017 6:03:17 GMT -6
one question on the army minimum of 25% .... will the megahordes in the LB figure into that number or will it be based on the base horde size ? So, if the base horde is 250k , made to be 500k as a megahorde ... is the minimum army size 62.5k or 125k ?
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Post by gerdonat on Jul 6, 2017 6:30:59 GMT -6
About the alignment of hitting hordes for shadow controlled cities.
Even when it seems pretty natural, the problem with this is how the rest of the mechanics of the game work.
For the shadow, you want to keep all armies low for last battle, for the cities you control and the cities you don't, so you want to attack all the armies.
So, if you want to change that, then for the last battle you would need to do something similar, reverse the alignment and the points of the army and the horde, so the shadow can target the horde attacking a shadow controlled city... but that could be a big change that needs further analysis. For example, what happens with the army when a city changes who controls it... from shadow to light or the other way around.
So, even when the change in isolation seems to be totally logical, when seen in the big picture, it brings more inconsistencies than advantages.
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Post by Seitaarin on Jul 6, 2017 18:45:45 GMT -6
I feel that flipping the name of the attacker makes more sense than flipping the alignment mechanics if we're going down this path. Make 'Armies' attack Shadow held cities and 'Hordes' attack Light held cities, rather than hordes attacking light held cities and hordes attacking shadow aligned cities - much cleaner for player understanding. After all, it's not like the Light didn't have it's own armies to strike at Shadow held territory. Then it's still a matter of deciding on alignment shift if the attacker reaches the city (make it imperative for shadow to defend it's cities rather than optional - currently it's either gain LB points at no turn cost, or gain more LB points at turn cost), and what happens if the controlling clan is flipped during the attack.
I'd say lock city alignment shift during a horde/army duration, score it like a CB or tourny or whatever, rather than try and devise real time mechanics that could be exploited by support switching.
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Post by King Richard on Jul 6, 2017 22:15:22 GMT -6
City control cannot change while a horde is present. Have to wait till the hour after it's gone, so it won't flip during an attack.
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Post by kaldar on Jul 7, 2017 5:21:33 GMT -6
I don't know of any of the other repurcussions of it, but Seitaarin's idea seems like a good one : armies attack shadow held cities, hordes attack light held cities, and the 2 sides hit the same thing they do now for alignment purposes.
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Post by Jenlyn on Jul 7, 2017 10:46:20 GMT -6
It makes better thematic sense, too.
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Post by Tim on Jul 7, 2017 12:16:01 GMT -6
So to clarify what you guys are saying, would the army's health still be based on the stats for the city or would the horde's be? I'm guessing you'd still want the Army, as the Shadow wants to weaken the armies. So for cities the Shadow rules, they would be controlling the size of their attacker's force and their defense would be fixed with the size of what hordes are for Light cities? Would defeating the horde double the army size? Would damaging the army lower the army size even further for next time? Seems like this would make hordes/army attacks easier and a positive thing for Shadow cities, instead of something that Light clans have to react to quickly or risk damage to their armies and/or city improvements.
There's a difficult balance going on here and the root cause is the way the LB works. Shadow clans want to rule cities during the age, but then destroy them in the LB. These are two goals work against each other.
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