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Post by Jenlyn on May 19, 2017 23:19:57 GMT -6
You can duel. You might just be going through the motions this round, but that doesn't mean that your accounts are lousy. And if they are, my poison build still loses to tainters, but at least I can beat you.
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Post by Seitaarin on May 21, 2017 20:03:43 GMT -6
Here's another idea I'll throw out there in the interests of balance - slightly change the base block distribution of items. Reduce slightly the base block values of lower tier items first up. Whether this extends into an increase in the distribution of block values at the high end I'm not sure ... block is dominant early due to the achievable base values compared to the amount of base damage that can be stacked in opposition, however this is somewhat countered at the other end of the level range by the amount of damage% that can be stacked compared to how much defense% is realistically able to be stacked which still maintaining a damage stack - defense% doesn't inherently aid you in winning, it only prevents one type of damage from being applied to you, so stacking 200% defense is in some senses absolutely pointless. The reason poison countered this is due to the secondary penalties that poison application has. Having said that - and I hate that I am saying this because it really should be OK but it's just not - being able to select shield focus as a starter ability just ridiculously increases the base block stack available to characters too early in the game. I dislike the suggestion of once again removing this as an option, however I do feel that it needs balancing. I would suggest perhaps modifying some base block values to instead be defense% - again with the view that defense% is more of an end-game stat and thus will have less (definitely not useless, but certainly of less impact) early game stat. EDIT: By somewhat countered I mean very countered btw, just for clarification In previous ages, without Poison secondaries, end game damage/damage% >>> end game block/defense
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Post by kaldar on May 22, 2017 11:10:18 GMT -6
I don't understand why you want to reduce block ... first, you acknowledged that taint builds are powerful early in the game now, which already undercuts a reason to go extremely high with block in the first place. But also, adding a ton of block has consequences later in the age unless there are many melee fighters, which after last age, there just aren't many any longer since they were completely inept to the poison tinker builds.
I don't particularly see a problem with the block potential as it is, since as you pointed out, later in the age you probably want defense % instead of block anyway.
It is really too bad that you quit .... I wish you would pick up your character again. You could still be within a few levels of the top 5 characters. It would allow us to see what the taint dueler builds look like later in the age against the build you came up with. I'm kinda curious myself.
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Post by Seitaarin on May 22, 2017 17:36:50 GMT -6
Base block values are the root cause of total exclusion of melee builds from being competitive early in the age. With the lack of speed stacking available, turn control is not able to be established which is what then sets taint clearly in the front position above poison. That matchup is alot more luck dependent and has the distinct possibility of either side not performing as expected, but doesn't change the fact that melee builds are pure fodder.
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Post by kaldar on May 23, 2017 12:14:31 GMT -6
Yes, I was extremely disappointed at how poorly our melee builds performed last age in particular. I do notice this age though that some melee builds are able to do significant damage to my tainter even with some good defenses on. However, we haven't gotten to tinker TAs yet, and that will probably squash it.
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Post by Tim on May 23, 2017 13:40:23 GMT -6
Melee does better vs Taint than vs Poison, since poison also drops the target's % damage.
A thought I had for balancing Taint was what if every time you apply Taint, you get a -2x% defense penalty until your next turn. So you only get the penalty on turns after you've applied taint and the penalty wouldn't stack. That way damage builds would be more effective against taint. Would be more effective later on than early, but still might have some effect. Could also go with a player gets +x% damage for each Taint they have applied to them, but that could get out of hand with some of the Taint stacks I've seen late game.
So ideally we'd have Straight Damage > Taint > Poison > Straight Damage.
Thoughts?
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Post by Jenlyn on May 23, 2017 17:39:23 GMT -6
Rock, paper, scissors like that would probably be ideal
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Post by Edvar al'Given on Jun 2, 2017 16:02:43 GMT -6
Me, my problem is that I'm too competitive and I don't have a lot of time. When I play, at first its fun and cool, but then I always end up getting too involved and serious, losing sleep and putting off important things. The truth is, I can't compete with some of the players here and it can be frustrating. On the other hand, I can't seem to stay away either lol! And somehow...I've still got the second most posts here....of course, Tim has almost 4x the amount that I have lol!
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Post by kaldar on Jun 6, 2017 7:51:08 GMT -6
Did you have an account this age Edvar ?
Edit :
Just to clarify, Tim, are you suggesting that if I deal apply 60 taint to the taint stack this turn, that until my next turn I will have -120% defense? That is insane.
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Post by kaldar on Jun 7, 2017 11:39:35 GMT -6
by the way ... this was from an attack against me from a melee dealer to my taint ...
Sadogar gets a lucky hit in. Lord takes 544 damage Lord is stunned for 19 and wounded for 4. Poison wracks Lord's body for 50 damage
so I'm not sure why melee needs much more help against a tainter ?
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Post by Tim on Jun 8, 2017 10:04:33 GMT -6
When you put numbers like that in there, yes that is ridiculous. I had already backed it down to -1% def per 1 taint applied to the stack in my notes, but it's still just an idea.
Right now duel builds seem to be Taint > Poison > Damage. It's unfortunate that late game testing isn't going to be as definitive this age, but I do know that early on this age the dominance of Taint builds was a drain on the fun of a lot of Light players (won't put words in players mouth to say it made them quit, but I know there were lots of complaints and few ideas of how to effectively counter it. The game has trended towards making special damage and defensive builds better at dueling for a while now. Just trying to come up with better ways to balance things throughout the course of the game. Last age duels came down to who could apply the biggest poison stack before their opponent gained their health back. This age has mostly been who can apply the most taint fastest.
All I've been hearing for two ages is how unbalanced dueling is. I'm trying to throw out ideas to fix it. If you have a better idea of how to balance taint, I'm all ears.
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Post by kaldar on Jun 8, 2017 13:50:53 GMT -6
It is a challenge, that's for sure. It is just really hard for me to figure out how big an imbalance there is without anyone willing to duel.
All I can say is this. Last age, taint builds cleaned all my melee build's clocks without exception and fighting them was basically futile.
This age, melee builds have actually beat my taint build. Now it might be harder for them once I get my tinker stuff going stronger, but even with 60% health gain a melee build reduced me to 0 in 4 hits. For some reason the defense just doesn't seem to be working very much.
Taint builds are nice, but there is still the trade off between going lots of turns and applying taint only a few times vs. going just a few turns and applying taint several times (if it goes off that is).
Certainly worth a discussion though. I think, assuming people pay attention come the last battle, they might have more issues with horde strength than taint builds.
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Post by Tim on Jun 8, 2017 16:10:09 GMT -6
Horde and army strength changes are on my list too. I'm thinking I might do my countdown a little different this age and just release the outline of all my changes in a few big posts all at once. Also may not wait til the end of this age to do it, since things are so quite right now anyways I don't want to have any bigger break between the ages than I have to. (You need to add %def to your taint build to go with the straight block you have. )
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Post by King Richard on Jun 8, 2017 16:26:49 GMT -6
All I can say is this. Last age, taint builds cleaned all my melee build's clocks without exception and fighting them was basically futile. This age, melee builds have actually beat my taint build. Now it might be harder for them once I get my tinker stuff going stronger, but even with 60% health gain a melee build reduced me to 0 in 4 hits. Not sure what you're talking about.... My recollection is that Taint got buffed this round, because they were pretty much useless after level 40. In fact, there is only 1 true tainter that has EVER beaten KR's melee build after level 40, and that was in v10. Taint sucked, and has always sucked, (since v4) except for the first 20 levels when it is the absolute B.E.S.T greatest thing EVER. Unless you're talking about the poison builds that had Taint sprinkles? I have nothing to contribute as far as this age though, since I haven't been playing.
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Post by kaldar on Jun 9, 2017 11:41:05 GMT -6
I meant tinker builds, not taint builds ... Freudian slip
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