CDV17: Starting Class and weapon focus changes, part 2

[Tim]

Here are the new skills for the starting classes. You'll be able to notice a pattern in how the skills are arranged. Each class focuses on 4 main stats, with a splash of straight damage/block and speed/wound available on the active skills. The same pattern is applied that was before, so the one's with 1 "-" are the passive skills, 2 "-"s need one adjacent passive skill to be an equal or higher level, and 3 "-"s need both passive skills to be equal or higher level.

Armsman
-- Combat Prowess: +X% damage, +X% defense, +X1/3 speed
- Poised to Strike: +X% damage, +X dodge
--- Battle Tested: +X% damage, +X% defense, +X dodge, +X% health gain
- On Guard: +X% defense, +X% health gain
-- Under the Banner: +X~2X damage, +X% health gain, +X dodge

Outdoorsman
-- Stealth Strike: +X dodge, +X poison, +X1/3 speed
- Precise Movement: +X accuracy, +X dodge
--- Natural Awareness: +X accuracy, +X dodge, +X luck, +X poison
- One with the Land: +X luck, +X poison
-- Trapping: +X~2X damage, +X luck, +X accuracy

Wanderer
-- Take No Chances: +X accuracy. +X luck, +X1/3 wound
- Shoot First: +X first strike, +X accuracy
--- Resourceful: +X% defense, +X accuracy, +X luck, X first strike
- Questions Later: +X% defense, +X luck
-- Trust No One: +X~2X block, +X% defense, +X first strike

Healer
-- Quick and Painless: +X% damage, +X% health gain, +X1/3 speed
- Correct Dosage: +X% health gain, +X poison
--- The Best Medicine: +X% damage, +X% health gain, +X poison, +X stun
- Apply Pressure: +X% damage, +X stun
-- Patience: +X~2X block, +X stun, +X poison

Darkfriend
-- Proactive: +X poison, +X first strike, +X1/3 wound
- Corruption: +X% defense, +X poison
--- Mark of the Shadow: +X% defense, +X poison, +X taint, +X first strike
- Deadly Surprise: +X taint, +X first strike
-- For The Great Lord: +X~2X damage, +X% defense, +X taint

This should hopefully allow players to make use of their starting classes more effectively.

Note: after we get all the starting classes and weapon focus changes in, I'll probably need to re-evaluate the NPC strengths. Exploring is already basically an "I win" button late game, but I worry these changes will make them too easy in the early game as well. We'll need to see.

[gerdonat]

definitely base classes are worth now

[Jenlyn]

I think Healer would be better with % Defense than % Damage; it is more in line with healing.

[Tim]

That's true, but it also makes it EXTREMELY good for a specific build type, which I was trying to avoid.

[Seitaarin]

And darkfriend is not?!? hehehehe

[birgittesilverbow]

I'll probably need to re-evaluate the NPC strengths. Exploring is already basically an "I win" button late game, but I worry these changes will make them too easy in the early game as well. We'll need to see.

To be honest, the first 5 levels the NPCs are quite tough, tough enough I feel as to be discouraging to new players. You have to know to use up all your skill points, buff your armour AND choose a helpful wilderness area to be able to reliably win battles.

[Seitaarin]

Wanderers can't seem to make up their mind either - with the other stats in there, accuracy sticks out like a sore thumb. Seems like it's a middle-of-the-road type setup with a dud stat either way depending on if you build defensively or offensively unless you go defensive melee - an option, sure, but definitely an unattractive one that will fall prey to the vast majority of builds out there if we see any at all.

If I read that correctly, there's a healer class passive damage% prerequisite for a block stat active as well, which seems out of balance.

Also seems like there is no clear light side option in that mix for a light side special damager without taking on a devalued stat. Armsman - duh, Outdoorsman - acc/dmg (this is probably the strongest option for a ls special damager, but still has point wastage), Wanderer - acc, healer - dmg% ... no such deficiency within darkfriend at all ... in fact I think we'll find that light siders will have a moderate disadvantage vs shadow special damagers, considering the availability of stacked special damage in that class - oh which reminds me, originally Fanatic was set up to be unavailble to darkfriends, a restriction that is not in place in game since darkfriend became a starter class rather than a selectable AC. That by design, or am I remembering that wrong? I was able to add this class to my df in the most recent age, was sure I should not be able to, but could be mistaken.

Given that health gain is shredded by taint, I actually don't think that the healer class having defense% as opposed to damage% will be too much myself. It will be strong vs melee, but blunted significantly against any taint damage (which all shadow players will have in abundance, make no mistake)

[Seitaarin]

Actually on further thought, that early game taint imbalance that has shown itself in duelling over the ages is going to be seen 100X over with this change. Any non-darkfriend should expect to get absolutely creamed at least until level 30, possibly beyond now with taint being both more useful and more easily stacked, will have to see but that's how I would expect to see it play out.

Further to that, darkfriend is going to be also the easiest of classes to NPC smash early, as it will be able to stack enough damage right out of the blocks to itemise completely defensively and nullify all incoming npc damage. 

I like the overall feel of darkfriend, the stats feel right for it as a class, but it's going to completely break the early game at the very least. Later game effects won't be quite as bad as that I think, but it will absolutely dominate every aspect of the game with ease in the 1-20 bracket, which I think might actually carry beyond that but it's hard to see with the other changes coming down, time will tell. 

[Seitaarin]

On NPC difficulty ... think 'taint immunity' or resistance for shadow NPC's ... most zones (all zones?) have a shadow NPC of some sort. Won't help against cherry picked NPC quests of course (and shouldn't), but for the thematic effect of taint it makes sense, and it would at least limit choice of where a darkfriend can npc farm to some small extent, at least at the start. I can't think of any other particular way to inhibit npc godliness of df starter class, anyone else care to take a try?

[gerdonat]

as I see it, 3x fs is a lot of waste for dark friend, as a matter of fact, I think outdoorsman is a stronger class right now.

[gerdonat]

and you cannot pick fanatic with df

[Tim]

Well, it sounds to me like I did a good job with these if you are all arguing different classes are the 'best'.

[Seitaarin]

Jan 24, 2017 6:25:34 GMT -6 gerdonat said:

and you cannot pick fanatic with df

See Maars Obsirvah. You can. Shouldn't be able to, but can.

[Seitaarin]

And first strike will become more useful with taint stacks. You will see that when it comes around ... if you have first turn, you have the first taint stack. If you also have the biggest taint stack, then I'll let you follow the logic from there. First strike also definitely has it's purpose in melee vs melee duels for much the same reason. With every player 'needing' taint to counter healthgain to some extent, this will be advantageous, not a dud stat at all. It will hurt primary poisoners with more taint as well, as turn advantage can suck badly against a brutal taint stack even in previous ages ... given that taint now shreds health gain? It's going to be strong.

Granted outdoorsman is nice, somewhat on the right side of the mean, but darkfriend will be where the goods are at.

[gerdonat]

Jan 24, 2017 9:03:11 GMT -6 Seitaarin said:

And first strike will become more useful with taint stacks. You will see that when it comes around ... if you have first turn, you have the first taint stack. If you also have the biggest taint stack, then I'll let you follow the logic from there. First strike also definitely has it's purpose in melee vs melee duels for much the same reason. With every player 'needing' taint to counter healthgain to some extent, this will be advantageous, not a dud stat at all. It will hurt primary poisoners with more taint as well, as turn advantage can suck badly against a brutal taint stack even in previous ages ... given that taint now shreds health gain? It's going to be strong.

Granted outdoorsman is nice, somewhat on the right side of the mean, but darkfriend will be where the goods are at.

Should answer you as you did to me? if its so good, pick it, maars played darkfriend on the light side last age...