V11 Post Mortem

[Tim]

V11 has officially come to a close. Congrats to the Shadow players on their victory over the Light. As a result of the Shadow winning, I will officially stop releasing versions of the game as the Wheel is now broken. Enjoy the Nothingness!

Or not. Can't let the Shadow keep me down!

Anyways, before we start getting all excited about what may be coming in V12, I'd like to get all your raw thoughts on V11?

• What did you like about V11?
• What didn't you like about V11?
• What do you think needs changed in a future version because of how they worked in V11?
• Other random thoughts about V11?

Hope to see you all in V12 (more information on V12 will be coming in a later post)!

[Shylah.Sedai]

Like: The new cities, the power plays, and the politics.

Dislikes: The alignment bug that kept coming up in the game at first. The non stop clan battles where the clan who started it could hide, the cheating, the fact that higher levelled players had no one to duel and were penalized for trying to duel anyone lower then 5 levels under them.

I've got more likes and dislikes but those are the ones that stuck out the most.

[fearless]

best age ever.... the new players we had this round were amazing!!! mesaana rallying the forces of darkness, alicia going bats**t crazy with the achievements, rasina building a very good dueler... all very engaging and fun to watch !!

Lots of clan battles... which led to some improvised tactics, which lead to some heated world chat discussions, which led to a dedicated forum post ( which could use some more comments, btw ). very good for the game by bringing strengths and flaws to light!

an active RP in the forum... has to be the strongest and most active ever !

and active and competitive dark side to counter the light. much more interesting

the larger map... (i did not care for this at first, because, being old, i hate change.(mental image=grampa simpson)) but it grew on me...

although it hurt me, i like that the towns can be destroyed, it hurt to let TV go, but it had to be done..really hurt losing several of my businesses and most of my maxed out estates (three of five) and losing my high lord cape, but i will find another one...

cheers to you, Tim. a great age..

can't wait for the next one !!!

[almordre]

I can sympathize on the level issue - it does suck working hard to level, only to feel useless at the end of the round. But, dunno that there's anything that can fairly be done about it, either, so oh well.

Agree that it would be nice if clan battles couldn't be ignored, but also think starting a battle should take substantially more of an... investment... too. Don't know that it's practical to be /able/ to start one every single day, or even every other day...

I'm gonna bring this up one more time, too - sorry in advance - I still think hordes might be too regular. It was still a big thing this round, saving up turns and waiting on hordes, with a still relatively narrow, predictable window for them to appear in. And, destroying armies or preventing that act still seemed to dominate the game. The recent changes in this direction made it /miles/ better than before, yes, but I still think overall gameplay would benefit from a longer window for their appearance. I know there's a balance factor at play for the folks who need hordes to dump turns, though - but the hordes still feel too consistent to me. Just my 2¢...

For the record, I /still/ can't find my way around half the new map. lol. The new cities were a good addition - allowed a lot more clans to stake out claims...

And, good point, fearless - the dedicated new players were a beautiful thing - what we'd been needing and hoping for for many rounds... I just wish some of them *cough*Rasina*cough* hadn't caught onto the finer points of character builds /quite/ so quickly... J/K lol...

Worst point of the round to me: the horde glitch... 'Nuff said...

[King Richard]

LOL Guess I should type faster. Didn't see Kev's post before I did mine.

What did you like about V11?:

1. It was in Winter! I don't think we've had very many ages where I didn't have to work at all during the whole thing. It's usually half in or half out. (Boss man literally just called. I has to go back next week. )

2. Yay! There be bad guys!

What didn't you like about V11?:

1. Bad guys won.

2. There were an unusual amount of big bugs during the round. There have been 2 versions in a row with BIG changes, and obviously some bugs got past us. I kinda blame myself for not playing the test site more.

What do you think needs changed in a future version because of how they worked in V11?

1. The obvious Clan/Last Battle things that have already been talked about by others here or previously.

2. Hordes. They're still not random enough for me. A 12 hour window is a big improvement, but I think the people who actually wait for them, are really the only ones that get any. And everyone always seems to want a taste. They were predictable enough, that it seemed the bad guys were planning their battles to start right in the middle of the twelve hour window sometimes too. (Not sure if they did that on purpose or not, but it was awesome if they did.) How I originally saw them when you first announced them, was that they'd be a random thing people had to deal with every once in a while that would throw wrenches into their plans. They've kinda become a much bigger deal than I think they should be. Less than it was in previous rounds, but still...
My suggestion? Maybe make them huge like everyone wants, but only once a week regularly. Occasionally two a week.
I'm fine with leaving it as is though, as that would throw off the LB hordes again.

Honestly though, we've got a great game here. A few things need tweaking and
stuff like that, but on the whole, it's already pretty awesome. Maybe if
there's no big changes already planned, in addition to fixing what needs fixing, you could just take the time to
do any minor changes you've always wanted to. (ie streamlining messages like you've hinted at) Or, like you've mentioned
once or twice on TAR or PMs, some behind the scenes stuff that we don't see but would make things easier for you.  We can't really expect expanded map and LB sized changes every version after all.

[Seitaarin]

From a fresh view perspective:

Like:
> The balance in the builds - there was such a huge diversity in how people set up their characters ... Coming into a game and seeing that degree of diversity was REALLY cool, and reflects well on the balancing done behind the scenes.
> The people - you guys/gals are all WoT nuts, and semi rational, which is awesome ... I encountered I think 2 people only during that entire age who took my duelling ways a little too personally and got up in arms, and then immediately realised what they were doing and then we were all good. You can't code people obviously, just had to throw that one in though

Dislike:
> The quest interface ... no sorting of any sort ... I suppose the biggest gripe would specifically be with the item quests, although I suppose if I did more of the other types then that might be just as bad, not sure ... also not being able to see volumes on item requirements for quests at a glance, having to open each one ... that's really time consuming, so when I was trying my hand I found I ended up using pen and paper ... not so bad unless I'm at work, and I'd rather not have game bits of paper lieing around ... and I work 60-80 hours a week, so ALOT of my game time - at least on my main characters - was from my desk ...
> Incentives for duelling ... In a game where mechanically speaking, it RELIES on players duelling for clan battles and an LB win, looking at the leaderboards and seeing 2 people with significant duel numbers raises some alarm bells ... I think that having more incentives to duel would work on many levels ... having even a semi competitive build/gear for duelling someone of equal level will greatly reduce the incidence of lower levels gaining masses of points for duelling higher levels, simply because they will have a much, much reduced pool of players above to prey on ... I understand that many people just aren't interested in that aspect of the game however, so I'm not certain on the best way to proceed there, too much could potentially throw the entire game off balance, so ... /shrug

As for clan battles, I think that was fairly extensively covered in the other thread ... summary: In the short term, some quick potential fixes ... I think there should be a cost involved ... no restrictions on declaring/hiding etc, but it should cost to do so, keeping distraction and misdirection as viable tactics, if a clan is willing to pay for it. Participation (or specifically NON-participation) should also be a factor in final payout ... If the defender doesn't show up with an army, and that attacker does, the outcome is really rather easy to predict ... You have to earn the right to declare by amassing enough support in the first place ... to declare and then be defeated by an enemy that doesn't even show up is really frustrating, and seems to me to be just as much an exploit of mechanics as any other that I have seen.

I like what TC said in TAR earlier ... limiting duelling by level I don't agree with, however capping the ji/point bonus for losing a battle to a higher level player that you initiated the duel with is in our best interests ... i LIKE finding a weakness in a higher level player and exploiting it obnoxiously ... maybe it forces them to think about their build a bit more rather than build purely for the specific purpose of killing hordes quickly ... being built specifically to be strong in one single aspect of the game should not leave you exempt from the consequences of being poorly built to deal with every other type of action, and changing the system to reward that type of mentality is what leads down the path of "best builds" rather than the open variety that we see now.

In terms of effort vs reward, the players that are the higher level SHOULD be rewarded, not penalised ... however in terms of balance, rewarding the players that succeed to the greatest degree can further tip scales inexorably to one side ... look at the top players from this age ... if the top players had received the greatest rewards, the LB would have been a foregone conclusion before it even started, the numbers were just far too lopsided. Rather than adding more restrictions, I again state that simply fostering a more competitive duelling environment in the first place will provide a more self-balancing system. If half of the high end light players had equipped themselves to deal with the LB rather than in gear JUST to kill hordes quickly, the outcome might have been very, very different. They created the opportunity for the shadow to succeed all by themselves by pigeonholing themselves by their gear/builds, leaving themselves open to be exploited.

[rahvinshadowchild]

Likes:
I really like the active community. Many people including, but not exclusive to, Shylah, KR, and Felic, gave me some nice tips and tricks that really helped me get into the game and learn how to play during my first round. Even though everyone saw the heated discussions between Mesaana and I on world chat, I enjoyed the small conflict going on throughout the game with her.

I also really like the fact that this is one of the only WoT games I could find I actually enjoy, with a great play style, a helpful community, a graphics designer willing to give tips on making portraits of my own, and a really great game designer. I just want to give a shoutout to Tim who has kept a great game running.

Dislikes:
I didn't like how quickly stamina can go down if you don't have a mount or good enough gear to hold your own in a fight. (Is that just me, cuz at first, stamina was a huge problem for me).

I didn't like the spying technique because even if the alt is just in a clan for the sake of having one there, people get suspicious and kick you out, leading to conflicts in chat. (Again just me as I probably encouraged it.)

Overall, great game, keep up the good work!

[Rhael Chaerdon]

Hmm... Well, it was a great round and extremely dynamic. Loved all the TAR and Forum activity, and the roleplays were amazing in their length and depth and in how they connected to events in GoS.

Like:

Know the first few aren't strictly V11 changes, but they are still fairly new. Like the entire alignment thing and the Light vs. Shadow scenario. It creates a lot more conflict (which makes everything more interesting) and lends a purpose to the game, defeating the other side, which is pretty important. Offices are also nice.

The new classes (Blight Guard, Noble, Assassin, Darkfriend, etc.) and the new nationalities, which as Rasina said above give the game diversity. New map took getting used to, but I'm finally getting it. Kind've. Not really... Close enough

Like the concept of completely random hordes that were a nuisance and appeared sometime from a few days to a week as specified above by KR I think.


Dislike & Comments:

Some minor areas of GoS were pushed to the margin a bit. For example, dicing seems like an area we could improve on. It would be also awesome to have Luck influence dicing, but I understand it could be unfair

Tournaments were extremely scarce this round, with a lot more emphasis on clan battles. I can recall maybe 3 tournaments this round, and none of them too popular.

There wasn't the excitement around capturing cities that I remember from V10; maybe because of the ineffective clan battles. In the last few months of the server, there was less interest on expansion and conquest. This is probably because of the larger map which makes it easier for more clans to hold cities. Solution: Bring in more players? XD I remember in V9 I believe when the Mosaada Aiel (so basically me and this other guy with our alts) managed to (occasionally) hold on to Rhuidean, Stedding, Far Madding, and Cairhien from our power base in the Spine, gleefully winning against the Collective. This urge was a big drive for me in that round.

Though I am biased because the NVS just sat on their asses being lazy in our humongous leads

How a member can still be leader/sub-leader while not being in the clan.

Not sure if we're talking about new stuff for V12 yet but b/c this isn't completely new then... Suggestion: It would be awesome to have the name of your estate appear on the 'Local estates' area instead of just Occupied & available (of course you would have to wait for reach the required level.)

Surprised that the Shadow won by a fair margin...

[Seitaarin]

Actually I had not participated in any prior discussions about the regularity of hordes, but having thought about it I agree that more randomisation of their appearance would certainly be a positive ... making them a bit larger perhaps would add to their specialness (it's a word now, like it or not ) and make them a bit more of a prolonged, cooperative event perhaps?

[Shylah.Sedai]

Alright, dinner is done and cleaned up and children are in bed and asleep. Time to really dig into what I thought!


Likes: There was SO much that was amazing about this round. The Mesaana rivalry was fun. I really like that girl, even though she likes to trash talk me. There was a healthy rivalry there and it made me a better and stronger player.

Liked the new lands and everything that you could do with them. It really made it so it was harder for one clan to control the whole world; there was too much to control.

I LOVE being able to have a good RP going, with some amazing RPers, and we base it off of actual events tied to the GoS. 

Liked the politics. Everyone had some massive choices to make. True, I really HATED having to sacrifice TV, but it was a sacrifice that had to be made for the good of the Light. I saw a LOT of other leaders make choices like that. Kuddos to KR and Tim for being amazing allies this round, and teaching me how to be a better leader.

Dislikes:
The bugs. Period. It made it nearly impossible for the Light. It seemed like every bug effected the Light more. Whether it was our alignment issues, the hordes, the cities being wiped out that shouldn't have been, all of them effected the Light. I'm really trying to think of 1 bug that singled out the Shadow, but I'm drawing a blank. We fought an uphill battle the entire game. I'm really shocked we came out as good as we did.

The constant rounds of clan battles. I didn't mind those, in its entirety, but the fact that there was no real cost to them, and the attacker could run off and hide when they logged off. It made it so you could only battle NPCs to get any points towards the battle.

The policy of moving alts into enemy clans, and stripping them down, so the enemy could beat them for easy points. I know it's already been addressed, but it kind of ties into another one of my dislikes. I feel that if an alt is at 0 stamina and their gear is at 0% then there should be no (or WAY less) points given to the winner, regardless of how much lower then are in levels. 

The Last Battle duels. It was IMPOSSIBLE to battle anyone, and get any sort of points. We really were being punished for being a higher leveled alt. We couldn't duel anyone, unless they were 5 levels below us. That left Rasina, Felic, Mesaana, Death, and Cyndane. I'm sorry that you thought we were picking on you, Mesaana, but there was nothing personal about it. You were all we had, or we would lose points in the duel.

Changes:
For the Clan Battles, either make it so the attacking clan can't run and hide from the battle (where ever they go it still counts as points towards the battle, since they are the aggressor) or up the cost of the battle. It has to cost something to start these, and making it so that you have to have 1/2 the city's money, in your clan bank, just didn't seem like it was enough. I also agree that they aggressor, and their allies maybe, should be limited to how many clan battles they can call. One battle every day is just too much. Not if you're going to make it so that you have to fight it, being the town's holder, or lose the city. Capping it to 2 a week would make it much better to get the support you need, from both sides, and make it more fair to the clans who hold the city. Just my two cents on that.

I think that the clans should be locked down, during a clan battle. No one can come in without an invitation, and you can't leave unless you are kicked out by your leader. I know that we had alts going to The Band, to help them, so the Light is guilty as well.  But it should fix the problem of having the enemy go into your clan, strip all their gear, and then let the enemy beat on them for easy points.

This might just be me, but I think there should be some kind of 'reward' for being in the top ten in levels, especially during the LB. Maybe an extra +5 points towards every duel. It might make those who want to keep their alts back, so they can battle the higher leveled alts for more points, think twice. I'm not saying this is the fix, but we had the same people in the top ten basically the entire game. No one really tried to oust Kev as number 1 (with Rasina as the exception of course). I know that KR ultimately got the #1 position, but it was Kev the entire time.

Ideas:
I've been asking for a way to add a second sub leader's name. I know that it might not happen for version 12, but a girl can dream. I don't know that Fearless likes being my 'Keeper' so much

I second the idea of having your 'town', in the wilderness, show up with its name on the graph. 

I would love to see a bond sometime initiated. I know that would take a lot of stuff to work out, and isn't probably going to happen for ages yet, but it would be nice to have it. 

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE make an outbox for messages! There has been so many times that I've sent a message to someone, only to have them reply a day later and I can't remember what I said! I'm begging for this! Please make it happen! 


Bravo Tim on a fantastic game. You really know how to code them to keep us coming back for more. Light, I remember version 4, with Craig, and how plain it was. You've done an amazing job and I'm proud to say that I play this game!

[Shylah.Sedai]

Feb 24, 2014 21:02:30 GMT -6 Seitaarin said:

Actually I had not participated in any prior discussions about the regularity of hordes, but having thought about it I agree that more randomisation of their appearance would certainly be a positive ... making them a bit larger perhaps would add to their specialness (it's a word now, like it or not ) and make them a bit more of a prolonged, cooperative event perhaps?

HA! Tim made the hordes bigger! The problem was, towards the end of the game, that we had heavy hitters hitting them, and killing them fast. More randomness would be good I guess. But I feel like they were random. I had to check every hour to see if one hit, after the 36 hour mark hit. Not sure how much more random they could get.

[sevane]

Ok, this was Age 2 for me and I actually feel comfortable making a few suggestions/ideas that might have been discussed in ages past -- but since I wasn't born into those ages...

The dueling difference: Seems crazy to me that player A can attack player B and LOSE the fight and still garner positive points, regardless of difference in level. It seems to me that this might be the area in which the dueling points could be best tweaked. Maybe there is a point for a win and then a percentage bonus for the differential in levels (either a plus % or a negative % based on level differential). If you lose the fight you do not gain points. I can hear the argument that some points should be awarded for damage even in the case of a loss, but I tested a hit with Sevane against a lower level in a clan battle and I won the duel with a hit or two, but if I recall correctly the dead opponent received MORE points than I did despite causing no damage to self or equipment.

Shops: It would be nice to head into a shop and say, "Why yes, I would like 10 Heron Mark Blades." Hand over the my hard earned cash and move on. Is it possible to have a feature that allows us to select a number instead of going to Shol Arbela, clicking on shop, clicking on appropriate equipment title, clicking buy... clicking on shop, clicking on appropriate equipment title, clicking buy... clicking on shop, clicking on appropriate equipment title, clicking buy... I think you get the idea.

Bonuses: Understanding that towns give bonuses and they are built into just about everything... is it possible to add bonuses that carry over to the next age based on the end of the previous age? For example, maybe the Shadow gets an extra dark bonus of some sort for winning this age? Maybe the clan that wins for most gold gets an extra bit of gold to start the new age, or the guy who wins at least 7 titles gets a nuclear weapon for use on one area of the map during the next last battle?

Names: Would love to see estate names.

Really enjoy this game, reminds me of a few pen and paper games from my youth. The larger map was a lot of fun and letting the Shadow Children take Maradon and then driving them out shortly thereafter was a lot of fun. While I didn't enjoy the ending as much as some, I can't say it was a huge surprise. When Caemlyn filled up with level 1 Shadow Friends and I have three characters that can attack no more than 10 Shadow players in the world I realized we had been had.

That's all for now, looking forward to the next Age. Maybe I can even find a way to kill Rasina Seitaarin more times than 1 in every 20 duels.

SF

[Deleted]

Likes: The RPing that happened I hope to see more people in the forums next age, that means you veterans too btw not just new people the Rivalries that sprung up, though i was well thoroughly irritated by some of them, they made the game more fun. The fact that there were people who were willing to fight for the Shadow. I am glad that people understood that it makes for a better game frankly, and while i am losing my best ally, i hope more people will join us in the Shadows.... The winning side in case you didnt notice

Dislikes: Punishments! God those things sucked!... I know i deserved 'em. Clan hopping to exploit the extra points you gain from being in that clan, dont have a way to fix it other than close your clan and watch entries, sucks but works. Other than that not a whole lot, it was a fun first age

[Seitaarin]

The Last Battle duels. It was IMPOSSIBLE to battle anyone, and get any sort of points. We really were being punished for being a higher leveled alt. We couldn't duel anyone, unless they were 5 levels below us. That left Rasina, Felic, Mesaana, Death, and Cyndane. I'm sorry that you thought we were picking on you, Mesaana, but there was nothing personal about it. You were all we had, or we would lose points in the duel.

I don't think this was as big a problem as all that ... Tim might be able to confirm this, but I am certain that I made more points on Rasina, hitting people around my level or a bit below, than on Gerran, whose average duel would have been in the 5-10 levels above bracket ... and it's not like there was no-one to hit, there were (albeit ONLY) 5 light players in the right level range as viable targets ... but my defence log on Rasina didn't even get filled I don't think, and I spent most of the active part of the day out in the field, not sitting in my personal fortress ... KR racked up HUGE points with his alts bouncing between Felic and Mesaana, I think he closed the gap from 10k to about 2k at one point ... with a rather amusing running commentary in TAR by Mesaana while she was getting pummelled black and blue, hehe ... I actually think that he would have further reduced the gap by not sitting in his defended city all day, I would certainly have lost more duels myself, that's proven fact by Kev's Defence log when he stepped out when I was about but that's a matter of conjecture now too

So there were definitely ways to amass points, that is fact, you just had to work a little harder at getting your right targets, rather than relying on the easy ones to sit still for you that was the biggest difference, targets were just easier to come by for us, the point potential was equal.

The constant rounds of clan battles. I didn't mind those, in its entirety, but the fact that there was no real cost to them, and the attacker could run off and hide when they logged off. It made it so you could only battle NPCs to get any points towards the battle.

Equally as frustrating was when a battle was declared and no defenders showed at all ... simply because by not participating, they didn't contribute points to the pot, and so won out in the end when the final reckoning took place ... some would describe that as 'tactics', others would described as using game mechanics to win on a technicality without risking consequence ... taken in context, that long descriptive can be shortened to the term 'exploit', all a matter of opinion really on where you draw the line. That's a continuation of the debate on the other thread though

I think that the clans should be locked down, during a clan battle

You can lock down your clan with the click of a button Restricting people from leaving?? You are the light! not Nazis ... also the responsibility for the actions of a single player shouldn't reside on the shoulders of either a clan leader or a game coder ... the facilities are in place to address this issue now, I think Tim's time is better spent on more important issues myself

The policy of moving alts into enemy clans, and stripping them down, so the enemy could beat them for easy points. I know it's already been addressed, but it kind of ties into another one of my dislikes. I feel that if an alt is at 0 stamina and their gear is at 0% then there should be no (or WAY less) points given to the winner, regardless of how much lower then are in levels.

Eeeegads no! Please tell me you can see how that would get exploited to HELL with people deliberately putting on broken gear and not healing to prevent themselves from being hit?!? Even thinking legitimately, think this last LB scenario, where there were very few targets available ... If you couldn't get points from any because they have been beaten down, where would that leave you?? Big fat disagree with that one, already covered my thoughts on lowby upduelling.

I second the idea of having your 'town', in the wilderness, show up with its name on the graph.

Yes please ... thirded! Hedon in lights, with the pipe band blowing out bawdy tunes and topless barmaids with big ... smiles

I would love to see a bond sometime initiated. I know that would take a lot of stuff to work out, and isn't probably going to happen for ages yet, but it would be nice to have it.

This would be a cool additional mechanic ... I don't know what the suggestion has been, but I like it

[Shylah.Sedai]

The policy of moving alts into enemy clans, and stripping them down, so the enemy could beat them for easy points. I know it's already been addressed, but it kind of ties into another one of my dislikes. I feel that if an alt is at 0 stamina and their gear is at 0% then there should be no (or WAY less) points given to the winner, regardless of how much lower then are in levels.

Eeeegads no! Please tell me you can see how that would get exploited to HELL with people deliberately putting on broken gear and not healing to prevent themselves from being hit?!? Even thinking legitimately, think this last LB scenario, where there were very few targets available ... If you couldn't get points from any because they have been beaten down, where would that leave you?? Big fat disagree with that one, already covered my thoughts on lowby upduelling.
[/quote]

You misread my comment. If you have your character that has been beaten down to nothing, and is a level 100, and suddenly a level 70 is making points off of you, then there is an issue there. That's what I was referring to. The practice of beating a higher leveled alt down to nothing, so that the lower leveled alts can come in for big points. That's a big problem.