Uncle Cid
Youngling
Heart of Winter
Posts: 68
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Post by Uncle Cid on Nov 6, 2011 14:03:14 GMT -6
I like Tim's refinement of all the good ideas everyone has had. And truly hope this will make the game more fun for everyone. But, I do see a flaw with the degrading Ji. While it would make it more interesting, and much harder to keep towns, imo, it will also make a stunt like we just pulled, easier to pull off. Also, how will this effect the Raids/Trolloc wars and the TG scenario? If that's what everyone wants, I'm ok with it though. I have it!! how to combine degrading ji, clan battles and tarmon gaidon all in one =D This can be improved on 100% and is a rough outline and not set in stone 1: ji degrades naturally 2: ji degrades rapidly for absent clans 3: ji degrades for ruling clan if their town is surrounded by enemy towns, and visa versa. but rule 1 and 2 still apply. 4: during trolloc raids, towns with higher ji, receive less degredation and an increase in ji per kill. 5: towns with absent clan ruler/lord, go into panic mode during trolloc raids losing twice the normal ji 6: towns with regular clan/lord presence gain ji and during trolloc raids experience say 1/3 ji loss 7: clans with multiple towns nearby can gain ji instead of lose it. 8: opposing clans that 'slaughter' ruling clans can get ji increase 9: ruling clans that 'slaughter' opposing clans could have no decreased or increased ji for a time 10: towns that are upgraded regularly can decrease the ji loss, or even make gains on it 11: during TG scenarios, clans with towns that have higher, or even increasing jis can receive battle bonuses, terrain based even. towns with degrading ji could receive the opposite i'm out of ideas right now, but the degradation and increase of ji, or panic mode even would all be automatic. I am a construction technology major and have no idea how this could be programmed into the game. but it would make for a more realistic approach 12: the more wins the ruling clan gets against an enemy, the higher the ji goes and visa versa 13: when you score a win against an ally, the town could lose ji 14: ji bonus for a lord/player for having a title such as master adventurer, slayer of animals
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Post by Edvar al'Given on Nov 6, 2011 17:27:08 GMT -6
Don't worry alSeen. I'm not quitting. Edvar is going into exile until his honor is restored and I'm abstaining from clan rule until he returns. I'll be playing casually and doing the graphics still though!
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Post by Jenlyn on Nov 6, 2011 22:14:33 GMT -6
I like Cid's ideas.
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Post by almordre on Nov 7, 2011 9:13:33 GMT -6
One idea I haven't heard tossed out yet - if you reworked things to attach Ji counts to individual players instead of to the clans, then players leaving a clan take their Ji with them. This would encourage players to keep their best toons in their main clan, and if you went with the 75%-support option instead of the current 50%, it would still be worth building up extra toons.
This could make for some interesting "mercenary" aspects to things, and definitely set the stage for some unpredictable power shifts during a round.
Don't know what ill effects this could have, but thought I'd toss it out for consideration...
Has this one been tossed around in versions past? Can't remember...
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Uncle Cid
Youngling
Heart of Winter
Posts: 68
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Post by Uncle Cid on Nov 7, 2011 9:59:56 GMT -6
i like the idea of taking your ji with you, that could lend credence to a mercenary effect pertaining to increasing the autoji, or slowing the degradation.
but, to prevent abuse, lets say only 75% of the mercs total ji counts to the new clans total, and maybe only 25-30% would act as a town boost, per town the merc was in. for example. if Red XIII were to leave woe, and join the screaming eagles the SEs total ji would increase by around 800. but for each town he went to the SE ji for the town would only be increased by around 200-300 give or take. another idea is that if the person is made lord/town officer the roving ji could be as much as 60% instead of the 25-30
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Post by dahllia on Nov 7, 2011 15:01:42 GMT -6
how about a simple 50/50 split?
would make it a fair bit less tempting to be a traitor, but would still allow for some betrayals or if say a clan's leaders go inactive or there's a fight
might be a lot of numbers to keep track of though.
could go with all ji sticks on your char. and if you leave a clan 50% goes to the clan permanently and you keep the other 50%
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Uncle Cid
Youngling
Heart of Winter
Posts: 68
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Post by Uncle Cid on Nov 7, 2011 15:12:16 GMT -6
I dont think a 50/50 split would really make it a tough decision to leave any clan. with the more there is to lose, then the greater the stakes. a more fair split wouldnt make me think twice about having alts jump from the SL to the Woe, then back again. but if i were to lose a good chunk of it, i would really have to make a tough choice on whether to stay or whether to make the move and build up again
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Post by dahllia on Nov 7, 2011 15:28:08 GMT -6
I dont think a 50/50 split would really make it a tough decision to leave any clan. with the more there is to lose, then the greater the stakes. a more fair split wouldnt make me think twice about having alts jump from the SL to the Woe, then back again. but if i were to lose a good chunk of it, i would really have to make a tough choice on whether to stay or whether to make the move and build up again think I misunderstood you. thought you meant you'd only lose 25% of your ji if you left
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Post by Hugh Longshanks on Nov 8, 2011 9:14:29 GMT -6
So....almordre, what would happen if I clan-hopped for a day? Would I essentially lose all my Ji if I skipped through five or six clans?
This also would present the option of leaders being able to punish their subordinates - since I assume kicking a character out of a clan would have the same effect on their Ji.
In addition, this would probably be a major stumbling-block in the way of players who try to get around the number of characters per clan restriction.
Cid, one question: Could the Ji decrease matrix be based on population of the town, rather than simply the ruling clan's Ji? For that matter (and this is for you Tim), how is the population calculated? I missed out on the development of that, so I honestly don't know...
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Uncle Cid
Youngling
Heart of Winter
Posts: 68
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Post by Uncle Cid on Nov 8, 2011 10:03:09 GMT -6
of course. for towns that do regular upgrades, have a regular presence, and somehow get the population to increase, one would think that ji would not decrease as regularly/rapidly compared to a neglected town than 2 months in the game still has less than 100 population and say 20% upgrades.
the two 200 gold upgrades could also provide a big ji boost on their own, and as an evening factor the price could be made much higher too
plus hugh, you would in a sense keep all your ji, only a smaller portion of it would count. this would probably be the most complicated thing to code. to make it simpler we would probably need a secondary ji count.
instead of just counting ji for quest and achievement related things (that should be stationary) we should also have a clan/battle ji that factors into the clans ji, the town controls and is not static meaning if you merc yourself and leave, that battle ji decreases. but your achievement ji stays the same
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Post by Tim on Nov 8, 2011 10:08:50 GMT -6
Town Population is based on the upgrades made to the town, as well as the number of actual players in the town.
I'm not sure how I feel about actually losing Ji when you leave a clan. Seems a bit harsh. I do like the idea of players taking some of their Ji with them when they go though. Say 50% of Ji goes to the character and 50% goes to the clan. If the player leaves the clan, clan still keeps the 50% the player earned, but the player takes their 50% with them.
Only issue with this is: What about players not in clans? Where does the Ji they earn that would go to the clan go? Is it just lost? Do they get 100% added on to their own Ji? Could it be used to boost the towns themselves somehow?
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Uncle Cid
Youngling
Heart of Winter
Posts: 68
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Post by Uncle Cid on Nov 8, 2011 10:47:08 GMT -6
you know tim thats an excellent idea, for those not wanting to join in clans they could keep all of their battle ji to themselves, and if they have more ji than a clan it stands to reason that they should be able to control a town as well. although that would be terribly difficult. but just as well theres no reason that a person cannot create his/her own clan, and set it to leader invite. that would solve that ji issue
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Post by almordre on Nov 8, 2011 11:41:08 GMT -6
Hugh - no idea - the Ji loss discussion came after my suggestion, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it could actually work.
Trying to reason this out in my head - Ji penalty for leaving a clan does seem harsh, as Tim says, as you've earned that "honor" through hard work, but then again, leaving a city/army/ally can be seen as a 'traitorous' act, and that /would/ dent your honor. Same thing if you routinely change allegiances, like a mercenary - not necessarily considered 'honorable' if you're not 'dependable' in that fashion... That concept is a hard call for me, though, as I don't clan-hop...
I do see a way that would avoid costing Ji for multiple changes, though - an extra player database field that tracks Ji earned since the last "Join" event. You join a clan, fight for a couple weeks, and that counter tallies the Ji you've earned since joining. (Your normal ranked Ji total would still count all of this Ji as well - Ji wouldn't be split among different counters.) If/when you leave the clan, then that since-Join number would be the basis for any adjustments/penalties - without affecting your personal Ji total. When you "Join" a new clan, that counter field would be reset, so if you join, hang out and chat for an hour, and leave, without running any turns and earning any Ji, then the counter would be empty and nothing would be lost.
One piece where the whole clan Ji loss concept gets hairy, though, is that clans don't have a single Ji counter, they have a Ji counter in every town. Tracking Ji earned per player per town would be complicated as hell. What if, upon leaving a clan, that Ji-earned-in-this-clan count is compared to the clan's world Ji total to come up with the percentage of the clan's overall pts the player generated, then that could be used to globally subtract from all 18 town totals. Not a straight deduct, but say that player had earned 20% of the clan's overall Ji total, then that percentage could be halved (quartered, etc - whatever's deemed appropriate) and applied to all town counts, so the clan would loose 10% Ji in every town.
For a personal penalty, if that's implemented, maybe divide the percentage by 10, so the personal Ji count would come down by 2%, for example.
Sorry if there are other pieces of the concept still missing - at work, so only partially focused, but wanted to get these ideas down before I forgot them...
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Post by Edvar al'Given on Nov 8, 2011 11:52:46 GMT -6
Ji....honor....its mostly earned by winning now right? The aiel say the least honor is earned by killing. Their system is too complicated, but I do think if we are going to use ji that we should have a better system for it. Leaving clans, betraying alliances...these things should decrease ji.
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Post by dahllia on Nov 8, 2011 12:50:54 GMT -6
just rename town ji to influence or something? would still be complicated to track all of it though
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