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Post by Tim on Nov 3, 2011 22:50:19 GMT -6
Started this thread in response to some off topic discussion in the reset poll. Gist of is that the domination of the SL over and over is bad. Please feel free to continue the discussion here.
I don't think the SL has done anything wrong here. They dominate every version mainly because KR and Kev are constantly 2 of the top 5 players in the game, and they also 2 of the more active players. They've also spend a lot of time on the test site ironing thing out and perfecting their strategy. This version they added a couple more strong and active members to their ranks who run multiple alts (like Shadow).
Really, the main reason the end up taking over every town in the game: they have patience. At the beginning of each version they manage to take over a good chunk of the map, usually the Northeast. Then they build up their leads there before expanding. This strategy worked well for WoE at the beginning of this version as well. Typically after a month or so a lot of player's activity have dropped and therefore their towns are easier to take. That's when SL typically sweeps in and takes over.
There's nothing wrong or bad about this strategy. They typically are one of the bigger clans, so it makes sense that they would get bored holding 2-3 cities. If you have the capability to take over most of the world, why would you hold back? If holding 2-3 cities isn't a challenge, would you set there and get bored or go looking for some action?
There's only one thing I see that's wrong with this strategy: it works. I don't like it that they are able to take over the world consistently every version. When they first pulled it off in a official version (test site doesn't count), it felt like a herculean feat. And that's how it should be. Now it's pretty much accepted as an eventuality. And I can definitely see how that can deflate the fun for the other clans.
Really, there's only one person to blame for the domination of the SL: me. The way the game is setup it's possible for an active, strategic, and strong group of players to take over the world. I don't like that. In a perfect world, I would say holding on to more than 4 towns should be very difficult. Heck that might be to many. But that's not where the game is right now. And I can't fault the SL for being able to pull it off.
So here's what I want to know: What can I do to make it harder to hold onto so many cities at once? Really, I think the clan battles are kinda working. Yeah, the SL managed to win all the battles they were in, but if that was happening to them constantly, I bet they'd either cut back on the number of towns they hold or get burnt out and quit. Don't want the second to happen though, so I'd like to hear some other suggestion. What can I do to make the game more enjoyable for everyone?
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Post by Edvar al'Given on Nov 4, 2011 8:02:30 GMT -6
First, I'd like to thank Hugh for standing up for me. However, I made my own choices and will suffer the consequences. 2nd, Tim, what if the ruling clan of a city had to name a Lord for each city they ruled? This Lord would get defense bonuses inside the city, but could not leave the city and it's surrounding wildernesses without some sort of penalty. Say...enemy wins count double when he's not there? This would limit the amount of towns clans could take effectively I think, while also adding more realism.
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Post by fearless on Nov 4, 2011 9:38:43 GMT -6
Wouldn't that limit personal achievment? Also, it would hinder a small clan at a higher % rate.... the large, evil Shadow Legion would simply soldier on....
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Post by davram on Nov 4, 2011 9:48:10 GMT -6
I like the lord idea, but tweaked a little. you can only be lord of 1 town and enemy wins against you count double anywhere.
so if I am lord of Maradon and fearless beats me in Falme...he'll get 4 points in falme and 4 points in maradon, if I beat him I just get 4 points in falme.
rather than limit the amount of towns you can take....it makes it very difficult to keep the towns you have.
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Post by Jenlyn on Nov 4, 2011 9:52:45 GMT -6
Someone in SL chat suggested that Ji deteriorate in a town if it isn't upgraded or actively maintained in some way. That might be implemented in a similar fashion to the idea of a Lord without tying a player to one town. the only other thing I can think of is giving each clan a finite amount of control, so that expanding is a lot like stretching a rubberband.
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Uncle Cid
Youngling
Heart of Winter
Posts: 68
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Post by Uncle Cid on Nov 4, 2011 9:55:11 GMT -6
Three ideas:
1: the more towns any certain clan has control of, then the "harder" it is to keep control. for example if the shining silver legion has control of more then 4 towns, the ji received from other clans starts to increase to make things more competitive. Take the seanchan and malazan empire for example, early off they had very little but were slaying the competition, now later on as they keep ever expanding, rebellions start to flare up one after another making control extremely difficult. the boost doesnt have to be excessive, but enough to make everyone else 'matter'
2: in addition to rewarding more ji to other clans when one clan has too many towns, you could also factor in town costs, the more towns any clan has the more expensive things get.
3: advertise. we all know its tough to play a glame with only so many returning players. there are many free ways and in-expensive ways to get our game out there to develop a higher player base. the more players we have, the better the competition will be, and the less we'll have to fret over one clan being a super power
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Post by dahllia on Nov 4, 2011 10:00:16 GMT -6
like I said in clan chat.
how about reworking Ji in towns so it decays over time.
as in the ruling clans ji in the town goes down by x each hour. the other clans' ji stays the same.
this could be explained by how people always blame the sitting ruler/government for the problems.
another thing that might also be an idea is have NPC leaders that slowly, but surely gain ji in towns. say Morgase in Caemlyn gets x ji every hour.
one or both of these would make holding towns a bit harder, which would of course limit clan expansion.
I still like the ideas in the Trolloc Wars/Last Battle-thread better(having to defend towns against NPC armies), but decaying ji/npc leaders might be a quick fix for the next version at least
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Uncle Cid
Youngling
Heart of Winter
Posts: 68
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Post by Uncle Cid on Nov 4, 2011 10:12:12 GMT -6
I like the npc leaders/clans, that would make for a lot of fun
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Post by Tim on Nov 4, 2011 10:43:30 GMT -6
I like the ideas that I'm hearing!
What if the towns folk support for players was more of a "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?" type of thing. Once a day the Ji of all clans in all towns is reduced by a certain percentage. We'll say 1%. So if the standings in Fal Dara are: Silver Legion: 10000 NVS: 7500 Black Tower 5000 WoE: 4500 they standings would drop to: Silver Legion: 9900 NVS: 7425 Black Tower 4550 WoE: 4455
This maintains the proportion of the lead the legion has built, but reduced the actual difference that needs to be made up. If a clan is actively working in the area around a town, it should be easy enough to cover the losses. However, if you're off battling elsewhere, your Ji in the town will start to slip.
I also like the Lord idea. What if we use Town Officers instead of adding a new person? Don't want them to feel trapped in their town, but maybe they get a bonus for staying in the town? Like extra Ji at the hour change if they are in the town they are in charge of? Every win against a town officer earns 1 Ji in the town they are an officer for, regardless of where the battle takes place (4 seems like too much). But if they are the officer in multiple towns, then you get the bonus Ji in EACH town. If a town doesn't have an officer, it defaults to the clan leader. So if SL rules the world and doesn't have any officers, beating Kev will give you an extra Ji in each town.
Other ideas I'v had: - Raise support from Allies to 75% of their Ji instead of 50%. This would allow clans to band together more effectively. - Limit the number of towns 1 clan can support another in to 9 (half) at one time. This will cut down on the effectiveness of clans made just to support another. - Come up with a way to close the loophole for getting more than 3 alts to battle for 1 clan by swapping which alts are in the clan when they are actively battling. (I know some of you use this one...).
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Uncle Cid
Youngling
Heart of Winter
Posts: 68
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Post by Uncle Cid on Nov 4, 2011 11:12:41 GMT -6
How about no more then 3 alts at a time per 24 hour period. if you have your three alts, and then remove one to add another you should have a cool down /waiting period to re-add
not a punishment by any means, but it will slow anyone down.
this could also be improved upon, and is not a one way or the highway idea
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Post by Hugh Longshanks on Nov 4, 2011 16:58:50 GMT -6
I love the idea of decaying Ji. And the Lords. SO: this is how I'm thinking the new system would work. 1. The Trolloc Wars This would be a major destabilizing factor to all clans on the map. Coupled with the Last Battle, this would be more of an apocalypse scenario, equally affecting all clans than a leveling tool. 2. Decaying Ji This option seems to be geared toward absentee rulers, or inactive clans. Essentially, it will weed out clans with control over a large area they do not generally frequent. Less of a leveling technique, it really is more of a "weed out inactive players" move. In order to defend against attack, thsi would likely require a fairly large clan. 3. Lords This is the most blatant effort at leveling. It would be geared toward lessening the power of clans with a large numbers of alts, since each town would have to have an active ruler in order to be maintained. It would largely be a matter of increasing the influence of singular, powerful players. This would make smaller clans with a few powerful characters able to hold onto their land against larger attacks. I honestly think we should have all of these put into effect. It would make for an unparalleled variety of playing styles. Those simply concerned with averting the destruction of their possessions would be able to maintain their influence with a minimum presence. The second option would allow very large clans to invade areas, or defend their land simply by using overwhelming force. The third option would allow for highly organized, strategic clans to harry each others' lords across the land in an effort to take the heads off opposition in towns. Can we please, please have all this? One other thing: I am by no means opposing or denouncing Silver Legion's methods. At the end of the day, they have triumphed by the same means used by their opponents. The only way to prevent one clan from assuming total control of the game is by a combination of balancing measures, aimed at decentralizing power and active opponents. We need both of these things in order for the game to be rewarding. Without committed players outside the most powerful clan, no amount of tweaking will fix the issue.
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Post by Jenlyn on Nov 4, 2011 18:49:10 GMT -6
We have to be careful as we move forward. Changes that have been made over the years to the War of Empires game to solve similar problems created new, unforeseen problems and in some instances, wrecked some of the fun. This is a different game, but it is having some of the same issues, namely that a handful of players are dominating to the point that it is destroying the game for the majority. Obviously, it needs to be tweaked, but like you said, opposing or denouncing SL's methods is counter-productive. They should not be punished, nor should their strategy be utterly thwarted, just nerfed a bit.
It is good that the game has become this unbalanced before we have addressed the issue. In WoE, responses to potential issues are quicker, and it has actually harmed the game. Sometimes, you just gotta let things play out for a few rounds and see if they don't resolve themselves. This has already played out to the point that even SL seems to think it's getting a little old, so as long as we can level the playing field a little wthout punishing or neutering them, we should be good.
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Uncle Cid
Youngling
Heart of Winter
Posts: 68
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Post by Uncle Cid on Nov 4, 2011 21:05:59 GMT -6
time for kev and rich to split the SL into two separate clans lol
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Post by dahllia on Nov 5, 2011 5:32:58 GMT -6
been considering making SA my main clan, but just feels a bit empty and lonely. maybe when we get some more players
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Uncle Cid
Youngling
Heart of Winter
Posts: 68
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Post by Uncle Cid on Nov 5, 2011 8:18:32 GMT -6
if i had the will and sanity i'd send you an alt, but im already gonna be bogged down with my 4 in the reset and in v9
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